Loading Data for the 45/75

[yahoody]

"Some concrete pressure information from Uberti would be real helpful . "

Do you consider Uberti repeating 29,000psi on the company website misinformation or a simple over sight?





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[greyhawk]

"Some concrete pressure information from Uberti would be real helpful . "

Do you consider Uberti repeating 29,000psi on the company website misinformation or a simple over sight?

That'll do me fine - if Uberti wrote it -
its daytime here downunder I sposed to be workin - havent had time to dig it out yet - thats tonights project .

What would you guys think about 45 - 47 grains of Win 748 in this case ?- its on hand and I sold my 30/30 - charts list 52 grains for the 45/70 trapdoor - looks about nice in the case - just a little room under the boolit.
thanks
Greyhawk





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[spacecommander]

Has anybody found any reliable published and tested data for this other than what's in the latest Cartridges of the world (24grains 4198, 350g bullet) and the info for lighter bullets in the Lyman #49? Even extrapolating starting loads for the trapdoor 45-70 results in substantially higher loads . . . . Taking a 45-70 trapdoor loading for the 350g cast bullet

[Mike]

I dont belive Uberties warenty covers Reloads full stop. Factory loads only. So what ever the factory loads do is were you stand or take a chance?
Black Powder is the way to go.

[spacecommander]

I dont belive Uberties warenty covers Reloads full stop. Factory loads only. So what ever the factory loads do is were you stand or take a chance?
Black Powder is the way to go.

Doubt their warranty would cover your own black powder reload. There is basically no factory ammo. It's 2015. There is NO reason a safe smokeless load can't be developed. I'm aware of the burn rates, pressure curves, etc. Not attempting to "magnumize" the gun at all, just want a shootable smokeless load that doesn't smoke the sides of the cartridge casing.

[yahoody]

I've now shot (and chrono'ed some of each) several thousand rounds of 45-75 using 3 different smokeless powders more typically used in 45-70.

Within  reason I don't see any problems with smokeless in these guns.  Smokeless sure can make a clean burning gun/ammo with some humph behind a 300gr or 350gr bullet.  Certainly more than I ever want to take advantage of or shoot for power/vel.   Easy to get every bit the equal of the typical powder puff 300gr 45/70 factory loads.    From what I have witnessed it isn't hurting the '76 action any either.  I have no head space change from new and the gun's action continues to just get smoother with every range session.

I own 3 really nice '86s any one of which had been my favorite big bore.  But even my scrappy and ugly little '76 is something to behold shooting.   I can see why guys kept the '76 running long after the '86 came out.  I suspect it was smokeless and the better cartridges that killed the '76 more so than the design effort. 

No question the '76 was an old design...but then look how long the '73 stayed in production along with the '92.  Anyone that has shot the '73 and '92 side by side will "get it " on the '76/'86 comparison.    Distinct advantages to both designs depending on what your requirements were.   

[Mike]

I agree, What would be interesting to know is what they Proof them to. I only ever shoot for a group dont have a Chrono and look for signs of pressure.
Use nitro in my 76 45-60 and 86 45-70 no issues, have used Varget, 4759, 4198, no problems and good results. I dont no what they chrono, mild to shoot and hit were i want them to.
I think one can get to caught up with how fast a round is going and forget what you are realy after "A Group" at a set distance or distances.
That just me. I have done the same with my hunting rifles for twenty years.

[Silver_Rings]

Howdy Spacecommander,

There is very little reloading data for the 45-75, so if you answer some questions I'll see if I can help.

Is your 45-75 the Winchester chambering or the Italian?  If you don't know, when you shoot your gun does the brass come out looking like it did before firing or is the shoulder moved forward?  If the shoulder is moved forward, you have the Italian chamber, which holds more powder but has a shorter neck.

What powder(s) do you have to reload with? 

What are you planing to use the loads for?  Hunting?  Paper targets?  Steel targets?  Plinking? 

What velocity are you looking to get?

Silver Rings 

[will52100]

Anybody using Varget?  So far I'm playing with it again, cast 20-1 350 grain bullet, 40 grains of Varget yielded average velocity out of a Uberti NWMP at 1130FPS.  Will bump it up to 41 grains and see what happens.  The 40 grain load is accurate enough at 100 yards for deer hunting, and about as accurate as I can shoot with the current sights.

[Silver_Rings]

I have used Varget with 300 gr bullets.  Varget works OK but I had extreme spreads of over 100 fps.  If you are looking for a 100 yd deer load a 350 grain bullet at 1100 fps should be fine.  If you want higher velocity then you can try working up the loads some.

I've done some hot rodding of the 45-60  and 45-75 and found that finding accurate loads become more difficult to find and the recoil gets more painful.

Silver Rings

[larryo_1]

Silver Rings:
Well I have to admit that I, too, have played alot with my 45-75 and have gone through alot of different loads and powders but to make a long story short, my rifle has the Uberti chamber and since it is blessed with that, it seems to like the 76 grain load of Swiss 1½ best and then 4831.  It also likes 2400 but with a filler on top of the powder.  The bullet that I use and have stated this before is a Hoch custom one that I cast with a 16:1 alloy that I make myself.  It drops at a perfect 350 grains.  Now I have to admit that my shooting days have been rather scarce since my heart started acting up but one of these days will go at it again.  I don't know if any of this blather has helped anyone but got it said anyway.

[will52100]

Well I bumped the charge up to 41 grains and this is what I got out of a 5 shot string.

1255fps high, 1118fps low, 1179fps average, 137fps extreme spread, 52 standard deviation.

Accuracy wasn't that great, but still plenty good enough for deer out to 100 yards.  I did notice the POI was about 4" lower than the 40 grain charge.

I've tried trail boss, and was underwhelmed.  I wish I could find a powder between trail boss and Varget.

So far the most accurate loads for me is 66 grains of 2F Swiss and the Lyman 350 grain bullet.  However the Lyman is a single cavity iron mould and a PITA to cast with.  It's better, when I first got it I didn't think I'd ever get it to cast decent boolits.  Now about 9 out of 10 are good, instead of the other way when I first started using it.

For the smokeless loads I've been using an NOE 5 Cavity 350 grain mould.  Make a very nice boolit, big metaplat and very crisp moulding.  Unfortunately it doesn't cary enough lube for black powder shooting.  I do OK if I run a bore snake wet with moose milk down the barrel after every magazine load.  It would be good for hunting, but for range trips I have to carry supplies to keep the accuracy up.  Would love for there to be a big lube design for this round.

I did try several other powders, 5744 showed promise, but I had one round that didn't ignite the powder, but did push the boolit into the barrel and out of the case.  Made a nice mess with spilled powder.  So far Varget seems to do the best for me, and I've got a big jug of it.  One thing about it they suggest you crono any new batches of Varget as different batches are slightly hotter or cooler than others.  Might have to bump up or down a grain or two to reach your target velocity.

[DTS]

Guys- something that might help in the loading and pressure business, is to obtain Hodgdon's Annual Manual.  Yes- it comes out every year. I bought the last one directly from Hodgdon by a simple phone call.  As well, Richard Lee's handloading book might be of use.

Note Lee uses the same "any .45/70" data as his 11mm/.43 Mauser data as well, however the .43 Mauser has a 77gr. capacity and used 340gr. bullets. I have used this data in an original M71 Mauser (1876) that I rechambered to .450 Alaskan (97gr. case capacity). I chambered the rifle to .450 Alaskan so I could get good cases at the time.  .43 Mauser brass was not available, however it is now- apparently, from Star Line.  I load black powder level speeds using smokeless powder, my choice being H4895 with foam backer rod for filler.  With the loads I am using, I get almost identical velocities as shown for the .45/70 - even though my case is MUCH larger.  Same velocities means similar or same pressures, certainly nothing dangerous.

It is best to also use a chronograph with your load development.

In either of these books, you will have to extrapolate, but - good starting loads for .45/60 and .45/75 can be found in the Trapdoor Springfield data (HODGDON) using their starting loads as starting loads. The Hodgdon manuals are super as they list Hodgdon, IMR and WW powders- including Trail Boss in many ctgs. even the magnum modern rounds.

Note the pressures that can and are generated with Trail Boss. The might seem like go-pow pistol-type loads but many of them are in the 24,000PSI range, especially when dealing in the 100% loading density arena.

------------------------ DO NOT START WITH TOP END LOADS SHOWN FOR THE TRAPDOOR. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT USE DATA FOR -------------------------THE STRONGER ACTIONS IN REPRO ACTIONS OF LESS STRENGTH.  The only rifle I can think of as possibly  fitting the stronger bunch such as the Marlins, are the M92's and M86's. The MFG're should have the final word on that.

Note the pressures in the 15,000CUp to 16,000CUP range - THAT is where to start. For many of you, those velocities are about where you want to start and likely stop to obtain original black powder load levels. Yes - those smokeless loads develop LESS pressure than black powder loads do or did in the same cases, with the same bullets.

This data is very useful. Note that it takes a BIG change in capacity to make a difference in pressure and velocity delivered.

You cannot go wrong with what I have stated above.

Also- some might want to try jacketed bullets with black powder. Don't laugh. It works. My bro shot a moose with a 500gr. Hornady RN with his Sharps .45 3 1/4, loaded with 100gr. 2F and a whack of 1/10" wads to fill the space. It worked. In Australia, there is a rifle competition which allows jacketed bullets with black powder loads.  Try it if you want - much better accuracy than with cast bullets and black powder, usually. Surprisingly enough, there is no fouling buildup as the jacketed bullet just pushes it out, each shot. Now, if you have a loose spot, it will build, I suspect, but do not know.

[Cliff Fendley]

I shot some H4895 today under 300 grain bullets. Trapdoor starting load called for 45 grains. Group was pretty good but LOTS of unburned powder with a Federal 210 primer. So bad that I ran a patch after each shot to get the unburned powder out of the barrel.

I shot a couple loaded with 3031 also just to see how the acted. A little unburned powder but not as bad. Didn't try for a group with this round since the sun was going down and in my eyes.

No pressure signs with either powder load and the brass looks perfect with no wrinkles. It was new Jamison brass, first loading.

[larryo1]

My rifle has the Uberti chamber and both it and I like that extra case capacity.  In all my trials and whatnot, I have found that 76 grains of Swiss 1½, 4831 and 2400 seem to work the best.  When I use the 2400, I put a tuft of Kapok on top of the powder.  Alot of folks may frown on this method but I have never had any problems with it.  Maybe I am superstious or something but I feel that my rifle is a very fussy ol girl and it seems that she likes these loads the best of all that I have tried.  the only powder i have never tried is Varget but my son uses that in his .223 and is happy with it.  That load of 2400, I got out of Ken Waters book on loads and whatnot.  He also used the same load in his 45-60.  He did not use any filler like I do but then again that is my choice not his.  Anyway, these loads work for me and my rifle. I don't usually babel on like this so this is what I thought about when I read these notes.

[Silver_Rings]

Cliff, the slower powders will leave a lo of unburned powder.  In my opinion, filling the case or most of it with slow powder is just using powder for filler.  3031 is a faster powder and you need to use less of it but it burns more of the powder.

Silver Rings

[Cliff Fendley]

Thanks, I was thinking the powder was just too slow. I was using trapdoor recipes and thought I would try. The 3031 burned most of it but there was still traces of powder not completely burned.

The 4895 had a bunch of powder not burned at all, still it's original color.

I'm wondering if I should be using magnum primers.

Ultimately I want to shoot nothing but black powder but this new rifle was throwing 5 inch groups at 50 yards with the black powder loads so I thought I would try some smokeless.

[Silver_Rings]

I think you ill find magnum primer will help some, but will still have a lot of unburned powder.

Silver Rings

[levers]

I do not have any loading data to offer but do have a question on bullets for the 45/75.  I have resized 348 Win. brass and the best I can do for bullet diameter that will fit the case and still chamber is .457 (.457 bullets fit tight when chambering).  I slugged the bore and get something more like .4585.  The .457 bullets shoot about 3-4 inches at 30 yards.  I have tried both 300 and 350 grain bullets.  The 300s are commercial (not sure on the hardness) and the 350s were poured out of wheel weights.  The neck thickness of the resized cases is quite thin, I think to thin to turn down.  A friend suggested that I try some hollow base bullets.  What size/weight bullets are you guys using?  I used 24 grains of IMR 4198 for both bulllets.

[larryo1]

First off, I use a custom bullet made with my own alloy that is 16:1.  The bore on my rifle is 0.458 and that is the size that my bullets are sized to to be sure.  As far as the powders that I use are: 22.0 grains of 2400 with kapok on the powder and for black powder, I use 76 grains of Swiss 1½ as the rifle that I have has the Uberti larger chamber.  Have never had any bad luck with either load.  The brass that I use--started out with fire-formed 348 brass and then went to Jamison.  I still use the 348 brass but in the mix of things, it don't seem to matter too much which one get shot.  They all work pretty good.. Hope this helps.