Load Data for the 40/60

[Boone May]

Has anyone tried any of the Jamison .40-60 brass in an original 1876? 
I have some that Buffalo Arms made from .45-70 WW cases and they feed and eject correctly from my original 1876.  That is in spite of the the .45-70 cases having a smaller rim.
These Jamison cases might be a good option too.

[dusty texian]

Jamison 40-60 wcf cases have loaded , fired and ejected just fine in my rifles  for yrs.. Very good cases .,,,DT

[Slamfire]

 Took the day off and went to the range. Using my 40-60 Chaparral and Lyman 403168 bullets cast at .216gn. .406dia. & Coated. 50yds.

  5rds.- IMR 4198 @ 24.8gns. ---------- Hi. 1416 ------- Low. 1376
  5rds.-IMR 4198  @ 25.8gns. ----------- "   1494--------   "    1456
  5rds.   "     ""     @ 26.8gns. ----------   "  1555 --------   "   1513       

  5rds.-IMR 3031 @ 26.8gns. ----------- Hi. 1438 ---------  "   1388
  5rds.-IMR 3031 @ 28.1gns. w/.4 flr. --- ". 1523 -----------   1492

With the exception of 2 rds. (by yours truly) all shot to point of aim, the "tightest groupe" was from the IMR-4198 @ 25.8gns, no filler.
I did not try to change my sights as i wanted to see how each groupe shot as to point of aim.
The 24.8gns. of IMR-4198 shot the lowest & 26.8gns. opened up, I could live w/ the IMR-3031 @ 28.1 w/4 filler.
The only problem i have is "astigmatism", floaters in both eyes, look like fuzzy spider webs.

  coffee's ready, Hootmix

[Boone May]

I got hold of some Jamison .40-60 brass so did a comparison with some resized WW 45-70 brass.  The Jamison brass has a slightly larger rim but not quite as big as an original Winchester make .40-60 cartridge in my collection.  Not sure why, maybe they had to make them fit the reproduction guns.
I don't have reloading dies so I use an original Winchester Model 1880 loading tool.  It works great for this.  The fired cases didn't need resizing so after cleaning and de-priming I re-primed them.  I used Winchester large rifle magnum primers.
I found the WW brass must have thinner walls as I can get 60 grains by volume of Goex cartridge in them.  On the other hand, the Jamison cases will only hold 50 grains by volume and still have enough room to seat the bullet with light compression. 
Bullet used was from original Winchester .40-60 mold which drops a 210 grain bullet with two grease grooves.  I didn't resize them, just lubed with SPG and used the loading tool to do the seat and crimp operation.  Just like the boys did in the ranch house back in the day.

[dusty texian]

40-60 wcf once fired Jamison case , Winchester LG rifle  primer ,  57 Gr. Swiss ffg by weight = 55 gr. by volume measurement under an original 210 gr. bullet lubed with SPG requires 1/8 " compression to achieve  the correct OAL , seated in Winchester tong tool . This load has given good accuracy and just under 1500 fps in my rifles for well over a decade !!!!! ,,,,,DT

[Boone May]

Dusty, do you size your .40-60 bullets? 
I would like to try the Swiss powder but I still have some Goex to use up first.

[dusty texian]

Dusty, do you size your .40-60 bullets? 
I would like to try the Swiss powder but I will have some Goex to use up first.

I load and shoot them as cast .,,,DT

[Slamfire]

 These are my latest endeavor's w/different powders. w/ 403168, .216gn. PC'd, sized to .406 dia.

   IMR 3031- 26.8gns. w/.4 Dacron filler------ HI@ 1351 fps. -----LO@1309 fps.
   IMR 4198- 25.8gns. no filler -----------------  " @ 1492  "  ------ " @ 1450  ".

  If i do my part the 25.8gns. of IMR 4198 is given the most constant groups @ 50yds., next trip out i will try @ 100yds. (better take some extra coffee). Will move the IMR 3031 to 27.8gns. w/.3 filler, all rds. loaded w/ 1884 loading tool.

  coffee's ready,  Hootmix.

[dusty texian]

Thank you for the report Slamfire . Are you seeing any Hi pressure signs with these two loads ? I just / finally found some IMR 4198 powder , will try it along with the Winchester .406 -210 Gr. and Jamison brass . In the past this same brass and bullet worked well with the IMR 3031 powder @ 28 Gr.  No Hi pressure sign but would not load higher in my rifle . ,,,,,,DT

[Slamfire]

Drove to the range this AM before the world woke-up.

Loaded 10 rds. w/ 25.8gns. no filler, using my 1884 loading tool, brass @ 1.880 w/ OAL 2.250.
1st. 5 rds.= HI=1448----- LO=1430fps.
Rds. 6-10 =HI =1447----- LO=1389fps.

  Loaded 5rds. on my LEE seating die 1rd. @ 1536fps. (??), 4rds. @1473 to 1421fps. NO !! no signs of pressure. I have shot a few rounds as hi as 1660-1700fps. no signs of pressure, and easy case extraction, i don't like above 1500fps. for myself.

The 3031 @ 27.8 w/.3 flr. ran 1484- 1467-1419-1412 & 1396fps. Think i can go to .5 filler and get a better average.

  coffee's ready,  Hootmix.

[dusty texian]

One of my 1876 Winchester 40-60 wcf rifles has a re-lined barrel . It slugs @ .405 groove and a ROT of 1 in 22". This ROT is forgiving or handles the heavier bullets and is still accurate with the original 210 Gr. at slower speeds . Now the others with the original bore and ROT of   1 in 40" like the faster speed of 1500 fps. or more the better ! My 26 " Oct barrel 40-60 wcf is a very accurate old rifle using Bp. loads but fouls out very fast ( with a great bore ) but if fouling is controlled it can print pretty small groups for a 136 + yr. old rifle and iron sights .  I ran a few groups using a heavily compressed charge of  61 Gr. fffg and card wad over powder with the 210 Original bullet and SPG lube . Those loads would shoot better than I can hold , but the fouling was as bad as I have seen in the old 40 Cal. Was a hoot to shoot with that CRACK SOUND ! ,,,,, DT

[Slamfire]

  Dec.-22-23, last trip to the range w/ 40-60.

   Now using IMR 4198 (No more H 4198) 22.8 w/.5 Dacron filler & testing w/ WLR primers.
   Brass (Starline, 45-70 resized) @ 1.885, OAL 2.270
   Lyman 403168 PC'd @ .215gn.
   Average fps. 1470
   50yds., using 5 shot groups, 3in one hole, next 2 out 1", shooting @ 3 1/2" target.

      Because i'm now using IMR 4198 i started low and will work up. the IMR & WLRP seems to shoot a might hotter, than H powder & FLRP. More later.

    coffee's ready,  Hootmix
   

[DrummerBoy]

Howdy Slamfire, DrummerBoy here,
Uhh well...I could have sworn I saw a 40-60 die set on the 4D CH website but now I can't seem to find any....have I got myself into a rifle I can't shoot?? Or am I not using the 4D site right? Any help....
THANKS, DB

[DrummerBoy]

NEVER MIND!!!
I founded it....
Dee Bee

[DrummerBoy]

All or None,
Here is another fit of head scratching cause I want to know more:
I'm putting this on 40/60 because "Lever Guns of the Old West" shows 40 caliber BP loads for 1876, 1886 and 1895 guns:
40-60: 57.0 gr of Cartridge for 1467 fps w/215 projo
40-65: 58.0 gr of Cartridge for 1356 fps w/246 projo
40-82: 78.0 gr of Cartridge for 1470 fps w/280 projo
40-72: 70.0 gr of Cartridge for 1516 fps w/280 projo
Not a significant difference for three significantly different action designs
The 1876 is not exactly out of the running in this selection...
NOW: the new Lyman manual says this about actions:
1873 should be limited to 13,700 psi on the 44-40 page
1886 should be limited to  26,900 psi on 2nd 45-70 page
1892 should be limited to 22,000 psi on the 44-40 page
1895 is good for 44,000 on the 405 page
But the 44 magnum pistol page lists pressures of 36,000 psi
And there are versions of both the '92 and the '73...
I've read on this site of Uberti limits of 28,000 for the 1876
Lots of apples and oranges here to be sure, but what all this is getting at for me is a suspicion that pure d strength might not have been the overriding design criteria:
Lyman doesn't put a lot of faith in any lever action.
Could have been only the desire to accommodate longer cartridges and spiitzer projectiles.....
Y'all please set me straight...

[Black River Smith]

DrummerBoy,

First I am not being 'smart' with this response. Really. But I do not really understand your points or questions.  But I will try to address what I think you are stating and where you are gathering your information.

The velocities that Mike Venturino gives are with bullet that he has on hand or available.  What you need to look at and compare are the bullet weights of the originals and their velocities.
40-60 used a 210 gr bullet Cartridges of the World list it at 1562
40-65 used a 260 "   "         "              "  "     "        "    "  "  1420
40-82 used a 260  "   "         "             "  "     "        "    "  "  1490
40-72 used a 330  "   "         "             "   "    "        "     "  "  1407

Yes the 1876 40-60 does appear to be a good general cartridge but compare it to the original heavier bullet cartridges.
Yes the original 1876 was a rifle ahead of others with its 45-75 but it was behind Marlin in producing a rifle to handle the Government 45-70-405 cartridge which was the overall marketing GOAL.  Understand the 40-60(1884); 45-60(1879) and 50-95(1879) did not come around until later years.  See dates behind each cartridge.

Now to your next statement.  It appears to me that you are confusing Lyman's reloading concerns over original BP made rifles/pistols compared to modern made capabilities.  Most information in Lyman manuals are reduced loads to protect themselves from people loading smokeless in Original BP firearms.  What you state as psi value are most likely for original BP firearms. Example of this is separate loads for 45Colt in Single Action Armies and Rugers.

Then you state but 44 Magnums are offer in these same designs 1873 & 1892.  You are confusing Original BP steel with re-manufactured designs (replicas) using more modern steel.  'If I understand your comments correctly'.... Truly sorry if I am mis-understanding your comments.

Hope this helps you somewhat.  Keep on reading you will learn a lot more info about the originals -- the replicas -- & reloading of such.

This is my comment to help you understand my 30+yrs of this.  I never put smokeless in an original firearm produced in the BP era(others may).  You need to learn when that 'timeframe' is for the Original rifle or handgun you would buy.  I follow the manuals for 'reproducing original velocities' using smokeless powders in all replica firearms, I buy.  I load all replicas with full BP loaded cartridges using originally designed bullet or Lyman copies, if I so desire.
If the manufacture states that their firearm is rated for a particular cartridge like 357Mag or 44Mag, I will fire that specific cartridge factory load every now and then but I general reload staying at mid-range velocities because, it is what I like.
 

[DrummerBoy]

Black River Smith,
Heartfelt Thanks! Now I'm getting somewhere!
Rather than thinking you're a smart Alec I sincerely appreciate your concerns in dovetailing what I do know with what I need to know.
More later after I've digested your comments!
Thanks Again,
DB

[DrummerBoy]

Howdy Black River,

What all this has to do with is that everything I read seems to indicate that, given modern steel, the toggle action of 73/76 doesn't really give up all that much to subsequent developments. IMHO

Best thing to do is tackle one issue at a time if that's okay:
First the Lyman thing:
My 51st edition stresses that loads for all the calibers under discussion here are for NEW replica type firearms.....no BP loads and no smokeless loads for originals.
Next, they do group as you say for weaker actions, but exclusively for new guns. 1873 action limited to 13k, 1892 to 22k, 1886 to 26k, and implies that 1895 should be limited to 44k which is what the 405 loads max out at.

What "seems" to contradict this are the 44magnum pressures, the .348 pressures and the 30-06 pressures in the 51st edition just because guns proscribed above are built for these calibers....this stuff about contradiction is my opinion. The Data above the double space is in the book.
Now what I'm deducing from this is that an authority like Lyman doesn't place exponential value on the progressive improvement of Winchesters "lever-evolution" my pun.....

Along that line of thought, whether it's Venturino or "Cartridges of the world" the progression of 40 caliber black powder cartridges doesn't represent any great change that the 76 or 73 couldn't handle, except for COAL..what I was trying to get at..

(BTW I think that trials gun of 1868 or whatever could handle the 45-70)

Stand By.....TARGETS!

[DrummerBoy]

Saved Round,
I think the army started issuing smokeless ammo for trapdoors in 1898....

Now about those Marlins......
DB

[Roosterman]

All of that info is for black powder. Notice the fps is all right in the sweet spot. That is what it was all about.