.45 Colt blowback

[w44wcf]

An old friend once said, "If I'd known then what I know now, I would have done then what I need to do now, but can't.".   Or to state it as it pertains to why I'm working out blowback problems with 45 Colt in Marlin 1894;  I have a long history with the 45 Colt.  Also, brass, dies, molds, etc to load it.  When I got interested in CAS my first choice for revolvers were 45 Colt.   Continuing with the same logic,   I have an arm load of Marlin lever guns but none in 45 Colt. I figured it'd be cool to have an 1894 45 Colt.  I ran across a Cowboy for sale and bought it.  It's then that it hits me (literally) that the Marlin 1894 in 45 Colt has a reputation for having blowback.   I've reduced the blowback somewhat to a level I can live with but would like to reduce it even more.  Had I have known of the blowback problem,  maybe I would have looked for a 44 Magnum 1894.  My wife shoots a pre-safety 1894 in 44 Magnum shooting 200 grain bullets and has no blowback issues.  

Bibbyman,
Rather than the blowback issue being the fault of your Marlin, instead, it is with the SAAMI specified dimensions of the .45 COlt chamber.  A friend has a '73 Winchester reproduction and has had the same problem with blow back ....until he annealed and neck sized his cases making them a much closer fit to the chamber, with the necks being more elastic.

I have owned a Marlin Cowboy Rifle in .45 Colt since 1997 and had the same issues that  you have experienced in shooting b.p. but found, early on, that  by annealing the case necks and partial resizing, blowback was a thing of the past.  In addition, I typically use .456" diameter bullets (original .45 Colt bullet diameter) with great results.  

w44wcf  

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho the fire.  Don't shoot, I'm comin' in peacable like.

FWIW, I shoot 44 Extra Long Russian in my SASS guns.  That's 44 Magnum to those in Rio Linda.  Now, the 44 Mag brass ain't no softer than 45 Colt.  Yet, I don't have no blowback problems with my Browning 92.  Load 'er up and let 'er flicker.  She just don't jam or balk.  Same goes for my old model RVs.

Now, If I kin make my 44ELR guns run good with Genuine Powder, ain't no reason I can't make 45 Colt guns run just as good.  So, I bought me a 73 in 45 Colt just to see what all the palaver was about.  Turns out that gun runs as good with 45 Colt ammo as my Browning 92 does with 44ELR.  So, what's my big secret???

I load and shoot Big Lube bullets sized a thousandth over bore size.  I pack all the FFFg Schuetzen black powder I kin under the bullet and seat it with a good crimp.  No compression die or drop tube, just firm compression with the lube/sized Big Lube bullet.  The guns clean up rite easy like with a spritz of moosemilk and a tug of the boresnake.  About once a season I flush out the innards with moosemilk and blow 'em out with compressed air.  That's it, pure and simple.

It takes pressure in the case to obdurate the brass and fill the chamber.  Go for that pressure and your guns will run fine.

DD-MDA

[w44wcf]

Howdy DD, come on in and sit a spell.......

Thank you for the good advice to reduce blowby.
Unfortunately, there is a larger difference in the chamber / cartridge dimensions for the .45 Colt. In other words, more windage.

According to SAAMI, while the standard .44 ELR (.44 Magnum) chamber is pretty straight, the standard .45 Colt chamber is tapered (.480-.487)!  Apparently the reason being was to better enable faster reloading when the indians were charging.........

Add to that the .010" windage at the mouth of the case vs the front chamber dimension .470 / .480 and there is a larger amount of expansion needed to seal. By comparison, the  .44 ELR has only .002" windage .456 / .458.

Those are SAAMI dimensions. There is a tolerance though and indiviual chambers and case lots can vary in dimension, but in a normal .45 Colt chamber, there is more expansion needed (up to 5x more > .010" vs .002") and therein is the reason for annealing the case mouth and partial resizing to better fill the .45 Colt chamber on ignition.

Sincerely,
w44wcf

[Dick Dastardly]

One of the reasons that the 45 Colt gets so much blowback is that there is such a wide variation in chamber dimensions.  This old caliber has been made in such a variety of sizes that it's just not possible to get "one size fits all" ammo or dies for it.  The 44 Magnum is a much more resent chambering and thus SAAMI specs are much more specific for it.  Also, the 44 Magnum is made for a LOT higher chamber pressures than the venerable 45 Colt.  So, if you are shooting 44 Magnums loaded with black powder the brass 'moves' less than 45 Colt.

One good solution for 45 Colt blowback problems is to get a sizing die that matches your chamber.  That way your brass doesn't have to 'move' as much so it seals the chamber better before any blowback happens.  BTW, less sizing means your brass isn't worked as much and it'll last longer.

FWIW, my 73 chambered in 45 Colt very closely matches my sizing die diameter.  My bullets are sized to .454" because that's the bore diameter.  Same goes for my ROAs with Kirst Konverter cylinders in 45 Colt chambering.

DD-MDA

[Bibbyman]

I was going to start a new topic but since you ended on get a bigger sizer die that more closely matches the chamber,   

Is there a process to polish out a carbide die to a larger dimension?   And to add more funnel to the mouth?

My research has turned up a reference to using diamond dust to polish carbide dies for pulling wire.  But nothing specific to case sizing dies. 

I have a good inventory of 45 Colt carbide sizing dies to experiment on as I bought a new set of dies when I started loading on the Dillon RL550.  The old set had virtually no funnel and I would have to "jiggle" about every other case to get it to enter the die.

[w44wcf]

Bibbyman,
I once had a .41 mag carbide die  that I wanted to convert to a neck sizing die for the .44-40.  I took it to a machinist and he increased the diameter using a diamond grinding wheel in a lathe set up.

Another option might be to get a Lee .45 Colt carbide crimp die. The carbide ring sizes to a .480" diameter which I find will hold the .456" bullets I use aok but might not work with smaller diameter bullets...depending on the particular cases used, etc.

I have read where a fellow doesn't size at all. He just opens the crimp up, decaps, reprimes, loads the powder, seats the bullet which is a slip fit, and crimps to hold the bullet in place.  That might work for a levergun, but I would not want to try that in a pistol.

w44wcf

[Bibbyman]

I was going to start a new topic but since you ended on get a bigger sizer die that more closely matches the chamber,   

Is there a process to polish out a carbide die to a larger dimension?   And to add more funnel to the mouth?

My research has turned up a reference to using diamond dust to polish carbide dies for pulling wire.  But nothing specific to case sizing dies. 

I have a good inventory of 45 Colt carbide sizing dies to experiment on as I bought a new set of dies when I started loading on the Dillon RL550.  The old set had virtually no funnel and I would have to "jiggle" about every other case to get it to enter the die.

Well, that wasn't so hard.   I set up the Dillon to load 44 but the old RCBS carbide die had virtually no funnel lead in.   I got tired of jiggling the case every other time to get it started so I chucked the die in the lathe and took a cone shaped diamond crusted burr in the Dremel tool and cut chamfer in the mouth of the die.  It cut easier than I expected.   The finish looked a bit frosted so I used some fine emery cloth oiled to polish it a little.

It works well now - never hanging up.  I didn't go deeper than the chamfer so the inner part of the carbide insert was not touched.  The cases showed no scratches so I guess I did good.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

In the pile of "this ain't my brass" I did find a couple of .44-40 cases. They will work in my Dillon 550B and I have ordered a shell holder for that size to resize to .45 Colt and prime them.
Lefty Dude, I took your advice and have on back order some .44-40 cases from Star line, so when they get here I will try them to slow down the blow back. 
We shall see, but thanks to all for the ideas which will be used on these cases.
Bunk

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Hi Lefty Dude
Using your advice I acquired some Star Line .44-40 brass and as soon as I can make time (ho ho) your idea will be put to the test.  Somewhere I read that the Starline brass is somewhat thicker and might not work, but I can find a buyer for the unused brass. Report to follow
Much obliged
Bunk

[Bibbyman]

When I reloadeded last I backed off the sizing die so it only sized the top 3/8" of case.  I shot some in practice and the blowback that I felt hitting my face was reduced to minimal.   I shot a match yesterday and don't recall feeling any blowback. But when shooting a match, I wasn't thinking about blowback.

[Wagon Box Willy]

I've tried heavy boolits, .454 boolits, heavy crimps and the only thing that made a noticeable difference is annealing.  I shoot full loads in Winchester brass, BL .452 JP45-200 boolits and a modest crimp in a '60 and '66.

[wildman1]

Yer right WBW, annealin' doesn't take long and lasts for a couple of years. When yer cases start to show up dirty on the outside ya just anneal em again. wM1

[sixgunner1965]

I've been annealing 45 colt for full house rifle with good success. Just wondering how many times you can shoot the case before annealing it again just wondering what everyone else is doing ?

RJ

[Coffinmaker]

Sixgunner 1965,
Unfortunately, there is no definitive answer to your question.  Essentially, you shoot it until it splits and then toss in the recycle box.  The
life of the brass is dependent on the alloy used, the stresses during drawing, the heat generated when firing and even more important,
the amount your chambers are out of spec.
Uberti large bore rifles are notorious for "Generous" chambers.  VERY Generous.  With 45 Colt, there is always going to be an amount
of Blow-By.  It's the nature of the cartridge.  It simply does not expand (in factory form) to gas seal the chamber.  Period.

Using the old "stand-by" of loading a heavy powder charge behind a heavy bullet only serves to shorten the case life.  It is not a wise
choice.  I have suggested in the past to use 44-40 cases in 45 Colt.  It comes from the manufacturer with a nice thin case mouth and
no taper.  It will expand quite well.  Not perfect, but quite well.  Big heavy bullets and heavy loads are not required with 44-40 cases.
Annealing is a good choice too.  Again, big heavy bullets and heavy powder charges are not required with properly annealed cases.
My additional suggestion is once the case has been shot with heavy-heavy, do NOT full length resize it.  It is now partially fire-formed to your chamber.  Nick size the depth of your bullet only.  The less you "work" the brass, the longer it will last.

Coffinmaker