Cap & Ball Shooting

[Major 2]

1860 is my favorite too, Noz.... I have several and all variations of their conversions...  

[rifle]

Interesting subject here. Reading bout the Hombre out there that shoot "real guns" like cap&ballers and not the new fangled cat-ridge loads is a hoot. Just jokin 

I never thunked up using a tube fer holding caps but if it works without fumbling it's cool. A whole self contained preload. You'd have to have caps that fit real well on the cones and still have to have something to seat the caps well or check that they are seated.

I know that in the beginning I felt like a fumbling fool trying to reload my cap&ballers. As time went on I improved this and that and came to where I am now and I guess there can still be room fer improving.

As far as being period correct I've learned from readin stuff that when it comes to black powder and loadin and all just about anything that can be thunked up was used in the old days the same as today(with the exception of using plastic and such).

If an Hombre had the moola to buy a wheellborrow of spare cylinders and have those in his cart then it would be just a matter of swapping them out and cappin them at the loading station.

I guess an authentic way would be to take the time to make the paper cartridges needed fer the stages of a match. Do some "shootin stuff" at home making paper cartridges rather then watchin Fox News .

It's not really that hard to load them paper cartridges and if you do it right and use a thin cig paper on the end that goes by the caps the caps shoot sparks clean thru the thin paper and the chamber fires like it should.

Trick is...using the paper cut the right way to wrap it on a tapered wood dowel so the cartridge is tapered and goes in the chamber readily.

Using that combustible glue to keep it all together with a ball or bullet in there is the way to go but the balls don't have to be in the cartridge.

They are just slow to make with all the cutting of the paper and wrapping and all but.....it's time well spent and the paper loads are authentic and work well.

An Hombre can get some paper left by the forcing conenand maybe some left in the chambers but that can be checked later with a lil ramrod and plastic bristled bore brush when the new loads are stuck in at the loadin station.

Doing that lookin fer left over paper and capping at the loadin station shouldn't take too long. Using nitrated paper helps the left over paper problem some.

I nirtrate paper by disolving Potassium nitrate in water and soaking the sheet of paper and then lettrin it dry.

Dixie gun works sell paper cartridge loadin kits and instructions and the nitrated paper. I like my own thin linen typying paper or the big cig papers they use fer rollin wacky ta-baky. Re working the wood dowel so it makes the paper cartridge the right size to readily go in a chamber was needin when I got my paper cartridge kit way back in the early eighties. Doesn't consist of much and an Hombre or Hombrete could make one easy and there's j\stuff all over the net on how to do it.

Using the lil cut square of thin paper on the small end that goes near the caps is good to do. Just put it on when the paper is on the wood dowell. Don't glue the lil paper to the wood dowell though.

It has to be admitted that cap&baller revolvers are interesting and fun and can be a little hassel cleaning and all and loading but the trouble is worth it.

I'm a pure black powder usin Hombre but I do like the Alliant BlackMZ new sub powder. Never thunked I would like a sub but....live and learn.
That FFg 777 isn't bad neither. Neither is Pyrodex Pistol powder. You know ifun you want to pick up a powder fer paper cartridges locally instead of send fer the real Holy Black.

One thing I know....when I load up the iron and take the hounds out  lookin fer supper with a low fat content and uing a cap&baller to shoot the eye of a tasty lil rabbit or two(ifin I find them sittin in their form in the brush not moving) they seem to taste better.

When I go wild and just rip off five shots at an old tree or rock or whatever the act is almost as good as the other one I like a lot. ha ha ha ha Nothing else like it. Fixin yer cap&ballers all up with spare cylinders or paper cartridges and cap anti-flubbin up improvements(so the gun doesn't jam up from rogue caps) is good and fun.

[Slowhand Bob]

Swapping Rem cylinders not can be very fast BUT will also prevent many of the common complaints and their time consuming fixes.  I can run a six stage match without reloading, using my pre-loaded spare cylinders.  Along with this I have eliminated the common need for extra cleaning of fouling between stages, most of it seem to go with the dirty cylinder OR is at least kept loose.  I am thinking that having just one set of spare cylinders would be a plus but I have not tried that, the ability to load all cylinders the night before the match makes everything else a moot point...   With all said and done I will still reach for a pair of 'Colt style' revolvers almost every time, I dislike the Rem grip shape.  The '58 grips are so uncomfortable for me that they actually get painful for my middle finger over a long match.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I never thunked up using a tube fer holding caps but if it works without fumbling it's cool...

Wayne, we could arrange for say 50 or so archers to lob arrows at you while you try to cap the revolver as an experiment testing your dexterity under pressure.     

[rifle]

Fox Creek, Leave it to your acute mental dexterity to thunk up that one. Good point to ponder. Arrows like seeters in the woods flying everywhere.

I'd be alowed to dodge and hide behind trees and lay in low spots in the shade right? I'd have you with one of your cartridge converted revolvers makin sure they didn't flank us right?

I'd be able to get my wooden flack armor on to protect my center mass too right? Maybe my old Spanish armor I found in the river?

I'd be allowed to load separate chambers so they couldn't count six shots and charge me right? Could I have my Walkers pair of beastes loaded with two balls in each chamber? Maybe loaded with no.2 goose shot?

Would it be fair for me to sneak away while re-loading and get lost in the woods and set up an ambush over and over? You know....like a coyote that's wounded and sneaks away and button hooks his trail over and over so he can see the hunter is still on his trail?

People have remarked about how fast I can reload a cap&baller revolver but......I have to have my "rig" with all the loadins right there on me and accessable . The flask is indepensiable in that standing and loadin scenario. Charge all six chambers in a matter of seconds, Then the ability to "feel" six balls in my fingers and bring that many out the pouch each time helps the speed.

I've taught newbies how to load cap&ballers and always show them that a person can learn to feel for exactly six balls at a time,hold them while punchin each one in the gun with the loadin lever without droppin any in the grass.  Saves seconds off yer time ifin you can bring out exactly six balls each time and learn to set the butt of the pistol against yer rock hard belly and lever the balls in against that hard tight surface,,,, or at least a surface that doesn't envelope the whole gun with belly flab sos ya loose yer gun and have to jump up and down to get it to drop out.

Then the cappin do-able with the gun in yer hand and the cap tin open and in the same hand held by the thumb and middle finger and the other hand fishes out caps and dent them against the thumb of the hand holding the gun (if the caps are loose fit) and then cappin all the cones in a matter of seconds. Havin Remington caps that get pushed on and seated all the way but still stay on is a help.

Actually I thunk a stage should be made up where the loadin of the cylinder of the cap&baller revolver is part of the game. Loadin the cartridge guns too could be made part of the stage too.

How about a stage where six guys plunk away at the shooter with those kiddy bows and arrows with the rubber suction cups on the arrows while reloadin?

Anywhoooo.....out in the fields and wood and meadows with a cap&baller shootin away it gets almost an instinct to get the danged things loaded up quick sos ya don't spend all yer time afield loadin and fumbling around.

Paper cartridges are helpful but have draw backs with paper gettin snagged around the forcing cone and all. Some people makes those things so the paper doesn't collect anywhere but.....I haven't found out the secret yet how to do that.

Anywhoooo....Fox Creek yer fertile mind has come up with a very good point bout loadin and all with a cap&baller. The loadin is an integral part of the scenario and needs attention paid to it.
Beware the Hombre that loads his cap&baller fast and reliable.

[Octagonal Barrel]

I'm also learning to use cap-and-ball (Pietta '62 Colt Police) revolvers in CAS.  I asked a question on loading cap-and-ball guns efficiently for CAS stage shooting over on the Remmie '58 forum.  A lot of posts suggested making a gun cart with a small work area tailored to BP shooting and an integral revolver stand to facilitate loading, maybe a possibles bag hanging off the gun cart somewhere.  I'm still working on the gun cart, so I can't personally speak to the idea (yet), but it sure makes sense to me.

By the way, with regard to the efficacy of extra cylinders, there's a gentleman on that forum who shoots 2 '58's and has twelve extra cylinders!  Two for every stage!  He can load 'em all at home, and doesn't load anything during the match.  So if you can afford two '58's and twelve extra cylinders, there's an idea for you.  (In truth, I'm jealous of him.)

[Blackpowder Burn]

I may not have the manual dexterity and sensitive fingers to load standing in the open pulling supplies from my belt (I'm jealous!).  However, the rig below has made quick work of loading during CAS matches.  I tinkered around until I found a way to integrate a loading stand and a way to carry all my supplies.

[Slowhand Bob]

Rifle, there was a time when many if not most matches DID include one or more 'on the clock' reloads for the rifles and pistols.  There was always one or two guys who would haul around the Schofield revolver(s) for just such occasions.  The common practice for cap and ball pistols was to use a staged gun to use in place of reloads.  The biggest time penalty that a Remington using spare cylinders gave up to cartridge guns was the need to cap those pre-charged cylinders, on the clock.  This is even made worse by the fact that Remington's are a b!+c# to cap anyways.  Now days most SASS match shooters would not even know the drill on getting a one round speed reload on the clock, much less a full cylinder reload!



PS: That last statement would even more likely apply to the cartridge shooters than to the cap and ball shooters.  Cap and ball shooters normally get far more into their game skills than just what the timer can measure.

[Mad Mucus]

I'm also learning to use cap-and-ball (Pietta '62 Colt Police) revolvers in CAS.  I asked a question on loading cap-and-ball guns efficiently for CAS stage shooting over on the Remmie '58 forum.  A lot of posts suggested making a gun cart with a small work area tailored to BP shooting and an integral revolver stand to facilitate loading, maybe a possibles bag hanging off the gun cart somewhere.  I'm still working on the gun cart, so I can't personally speak to the idea (yet), but it sure makes sense to me.

Hi Occy,

I am tinkering with a similar idea on the cart with a small loading platform.
Really like the simple styled 4th cart on the following blog..... extending the cupboard out about 8" or so for more work space & tool storage. One further down has cut-out insets.
http://www.okcowboyactionshooting.com/2013/05/04/gun-cart-ideas/

MM

[Lefty Dude]

For those using a small gun cart or a Rugged Gear folding cart. Most use a small folding wood table.
Capt. George Baylor is a C&B shooter & frequent Writer on the subject. His cart is a Rugged-Gear, and uses the small wood folding table as a reloading platform.

[Pettifogger]

Several years ago I had a big wooden cart that had a flat shelf on the top for loading C&B.  As I got older pushing that heavy bugger around and loading and unloading it from the truck turned into quite a chore.  Now I use the canvas baby buggy carts.  Much easier to live with.  When on the road shooting C&B I use this.  Press on the left, first hole for the cylinder being loaded, second hole for balls, last hole for the flask.  I'm firmly in the keep everything as simple as possible camp.

[Mad Mucus]

Pettifogger, matey that's exactly the setup I had in mind but with the holes on the side.

[rifle]

There's no shame in showin innovation using carts and tables or whatever makes the loading more efficient. It's a sign of being a step or two ahead on the evolutionary scale.

I'm waitin fer some Hombre to design a western hat that folds down into a loadin table in front.

I like that loadin box BlackPowder Burn showed up there in the pics. That's a nice box. Those could be sold like pancakes I bet.

Someone mentioned Reningtons being a bear to reload. I had some Folks ask me to mill the back of the cylinders so a capper can fit in there to do the cappin. If the caps go on and get snug with a good fit that would be handy to do. Use a capper. If nipples cones are not sized to be fit well with certain caps then smaller caps can be made to fit on the cones worked down a little smaller for a good fit for the smaller caps.

I thunk if I were to pull a cart and make a wooden fold down (or up) work surface for the loadin of cap&ballers I'd fer sure incorporate a loadin stand like the one BlackPowder Burn made fer his shootin tool box. Those are handy. A lot of Hombres like to get those right off the bat when they go,"Cap&ball".

Anywhoooo....watchin a match where the Hombres load on the clock would be a real interesting show. Worth the price of admission. Lots of good ideas would come out of that. I wouldn't be too surprised ifin I saw some bright Hombre foldin down his work bench that was hooked to his suspenders.

I read somewhere that it was a practice backin the day fer fighters to use the spare cylinder to wack the wedge loose,so the barrel of a Colt came off, and the spare cylinder installed and then the empty cylinder used to tap the wedge back in. Could be if then there was time the empty could be loaded lil by lil in between shootin the enemy. That would keep ya busy fer sure.

I have to admit that loadin the cap&ballers is part of the intrique and alure of it all. I like seein the black powder go in and the balls seated on top of that. A capped and loaded cylinder is a comforting thing even when it's not a matter of life and limb. I always save someammofer the walk home and the last time I load fer the walk home I always thunk...."now if the coyotee try to get my hound I can at least scare them off probably". In the dim light of the "bewitching hour" (last hour of light in the day when all gets quite and still) I like to escort my good ole hound home fer supper with a loaded iron. I love that lil Hombre and would surely claim self defense and shoot any coyote that tried to eat him.

It's strange when it's all quite and in the distance a rescue squad or police car runs it's siren.... it gets the coyotee openin up and soundin off. Then is when you realize they have been around probably all day but ya never see them. That's when that loaded iron on my hip on the "rig" feels nice. Makes me wish I had my wifes loaded Colt 1862 Pocket Police 36cal loaded up with 20gr. FFFg per chamber under my huntin coat. That would sting a coyote plenty.
Later Hombre!

[Lefty Dude]

I enjoy your posts, Rifle. Lots of wit and knowledge Pard.

[Slowhand Bob]

I do not think that reloading is more important now than it was in 186? but for our use it is easier to manage.  We do not face the problems encountered by the ole Reb or Yank cavalryman but I will bet they would have envied our ability to crank out as many as 60 fast shooting rounds in a relatively short fashion.  I am sure each combatant would have greatly valued a brace of 44 Rem revolvers with six preloaded cylinders  at the outset of their encounters, but alas, budgets sometimes outweigh the individual soldier. 

There have been a couple of occasions where I have received bals of questionable origins and some were a bit on the hard side.  At one point I actually obtained 2000 .454 balls from a now defunct caster and everyone of them seemed to have been cast from a bullet lead mix.  I quickly ruined an old Cabellas press and had no doubt they would have done the same to a revolvers loading lever.  Shortly later I found one of the heavy duty Powder Inc presses and it easily handled those hard balls.  About this same time I came upon the idea of spending the cost of an extra brace of pistols on getting enuff spare cylinders to shoot a match.  Sorry Johnny Reb, wish you had the same option AND I will bet you would have to!  For the plinker or casual shooter it might not be a big deal but for the regular match shooter it is a game changer.  But alas, I just hate the darn pinch point behind the Remington trigger guard.  Even with really light loads it leaves my arthyritic fingers very tender by the end of a days shooting.

[Octagonal Barrel]

I do not think that reloading is more important now than it was in 186? but for our use it is easier to manage.  We do not face the problems encountered by the ole Reb or Yank cavalryman but I will bet they would have envied our ability to crank out as many as 60 fast shooting rounds in a relatively short fashion.

Slowhand, I love your analysis.  I do think there's one difference between 1860's reloading and today:  In the 1860's if you failed to reload fast enough, you were dead (= no peer group pressure because you are dead).  Today, if you fail to reload fast enough, you can't do posse duty (= lots of peer group pressure).  Arguably, lots of peer group pressure is way preferable...

I originally remarked on the importance of reloading because I've recently been attracted to shooting with a SASS posse that mostly doesn't use blackpowder.  The one other that does use Holy Black uses newfangled metallic cartridges.  I'm the only one who would dream of using cap-and-ball technology. (Somehow, they just don't get the drama that comes from a revolver that goes "pa-BOOM" with lots of smoke and fire-spitting vs. the more common "CRACK-and-it's-already-over" efficiency of the more common smokeless shooting experience.)  It's a smaller posse, so the problem of reloading time vs. posse duty time comes up quickly.

I personally think of cap-and-ball shooting in CAS matches as being divided in two parts: 1) making the cap-and-ball go boom reliably, 2) and reloading fast enough to be able to do posse duty and not anger the rest of the posse by failing to contribute.  I'm mostly past (but not entirely past) riddle #1, and still in the throes of dealing with riddle #2.  Hence my focus on gun carts that help with reloading times.  I suppose I'm saying this because I feel a little guilty of diverting this thread from issue #1 to issue #2.  They're both important.  I'm enjoying learning from all the above responses, and hope to learn more about solving riddles #1 and #2 in continuing to follow this thread.

[rifle]

Howdy Hombre!
It's too bad someone doesn't come up with a six shot reloader fer the powder like the Paterson had backin the day.

You know.....setthe cylinder under it fix stationary and have a lifter raise the cylinder to charge six at once.

The principle is sound like the paterson charger fer powder.
The Walker flask is the same principle but with only one charger head fer one chamber at a time.

I got a Walker charger and it didn't work. I had to find the problem and modify it so the powder would drop each time reliably. It's cool now.

Getting the barrel offa Colt quickly and nimble without fumbling is a trick. The wedge comes into play and the ones set up to thumb press in and out help. A lil quick tap loosens them if the thumb pressure can't.

It has to do with the bearing surfaces matching the sides of the wedge exactly. When they do the wedge stays put but taps loose easy.


When I have to make a larger wedge fer a gun(Colt) that had to have the barrel set back because of  a larger cylinder gap I take the opportunity to make the barrel slots in the rear and the "Arbor" slot in the front match the wedge shape exactly. Instead of the angle fer the arbor slot in front being 90 degree to the centerline of the arbor I diamond file an angle to it to match whatever the angle is when the barrel slots in the rear set the position of the wedge. Sometimes I just make the two barrel slots at a 90 degree to the arbor centerline so I can then put the angle to the arbors front slot. Then the wedge goes tight with thumb pressure and can come out thumb pressure most of the time. A lil tap is all it rakes if it doesn't want to get loose from the thumb pressure.

The gun coming apart fer reloading easily can shave time reloading.

I have a stainless Remington model with about four spare cylinders that all fit the gun right. It hits my old finger with arthritisismide and...I just learn to love the pain.  I've thought of making more room by....making a cock-eyed trigger with a crook to it to move the vertical part forward sos I can modify the rear of the trigger guard so it doesn't hit the finger.

I wonder at times if I shouldn't just cut the back of the trigger guard off where it makes fer too little room.

[Blair]

The Paterson reloading system was very practical for its day.
Most of the Paterson revolvers do not come with a built in loading leaver.
The revolver had to have the barrel assembly removed to reload the cylinder.
The loading of a cylinder required a separate tool to help press the ball into place, and this required the use of the slot in the arber/cylinder pin to help provide leverage for this separate tool.

What will simplify this method even more will be the development of paper and/or skin cartridges for cap and ball revolvers. But not until a loading leaver became standard on those C&B revolvers.
My best,
Blair

[Slowhand Bob]

I want a disc, holding six brass cleaning brushes, that could be set atop the mouth of the c&b cylinder and then just pull on a little rope, like a startin a lawn mower, to scour all six chambers at once.  Never said I were smart but I shore am lazy!

I really like the tray ideas and even though I will likely get rid of my Remington sets, I still plan to try a modified Rem style load system for the Colt style pistols.  Perhaps for the Colts it would work better to have a deeply lipped tray to hold things in place since there are extra parts to be dealt with.  It shouldnt be to hard to fit the arbor wedges for fast disassembly??   At any rate I plan to play with loading both ways, on the range, and see if removing the cylinders and using the DD ram makes a difference for '60 style pistols?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Paladin UK has six-shot cap n ball reloaders he obtained from Europe.  I can't find his posts right now.