Problem re-loading Winchester brass for Win 38-55

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Has anyone experienced this... Wondering ifn I just got a bad batch of unprimed Winchester Brass.

I am using 245 grain RNFP bullets in dia of .380".  The rifle is a Winchester (Miroku) '85 Single Shot 38-55.

I can run the Win Brass thru Station 1 where it resizes the cartridge and installs a new primer. If I take the cartridge after resizing with no primer installed the Winchester brass will slid easily into the rifle chamber.

Here is the problem:  Install the primer / charge the cartridge / seat the bullet / final crimp...

The loaded round will not load into the rifle chamber...

As the round is pushed into the chamber it will slid easily until the brass rim (lip) is about 1/16th to 1/8th from seating fully. You cannot push the cartridge all the way in with your finger, it is as though the "primer" or something is making the cartridge case "bulge" just a wee bit forward of the rim. IF you use a wooden dowel to seat the cartridge fully and then Close the action the action binds on the surface face of the cartridge... to get the cartridge out you have to remove it like you would a squib.

I have run out of ideas on how to solve this problem... unless this is just a bad batch of Winchester Brass, I bought to packets of 50 cartridges each and I have had this problem with 20 of the 100... have not tried anymore.

When using Starline Brass I do not have this problem... only with the Winchester Brass.

[Ranch 13]

Sounds like your bullet is to big, or you're putting to much crimp on and bulging the case ever so slight.

[August]

Bore of Miroku 38-55 rifles is .376.  You are using the wrong sized bullet, Sir.  The .380 is for Marlin rifles.

The 38-55 is the most difficult cartridge I've encountered because of the variation in chamber lengths and bore diameters that exist -- even in modern rifles.  One can make no assumptions about dimensions and must personally measure bore and chamber dimensions of each rifle to be loaded for.

There is no easy way.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Ranch13- and August -

I made no assumptions on the bore and chamber size.  I slugged the bore... it slugged out just a hair line short of  .379" that is why ordered the bullets in dia of  .380".  I do not think it is the bullet.  Ifn it was the bullet, then the problem would also be found in the Starline brass.  When I reload the Starline brass the cartridge chambers the way it is suppose to.  I was using a Lee factory Crimp die... I too thought I was putting too much crimp... so I backed off a wee bit so that there is hardly any crimp at all... but the Winchester brass still did not work right.  I'm thinking I got some Winchester Brass that was made on Friday or Monday.

[Ranch 13]

If the brass chambers freely before you seat the bullet, then the problem is with the bullet seating. To much crimp, crimp not on a groove, or buckled case of some sort.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Ranch 13-

Maybe I am not picking up on what you are saying... do not mean to be rude or otherwise...  the problem is down near the "butt" of the cartridge (the case binds on the sides of the chamber and is keeping the cartridge from seating fully.)  After forcibly removing one of the Winchester cartridges, I could see the drag marks on the cartridge body and these marks are as stated about 1/16" to 1/8" up from the cartridge case rim and the drag marks are all the way around the case. So for whatever reasons the case appears to bulge a wee bit up from the rim.   

There are not rifling marks on the bullet indicating the bullet is not being forced into the rifling.  There are no drag marks on the brass case up near the neck.  Hoping that makes sense.  I have just never experienced this with re-loads... BUT this 38-55 is new to me... have only had the rifle for a week. Have not fired it yet.  Just cannot figure out WHY the Starline Brass loads work and this batch of Winchester Brass does not.  Frustrating...  I have just never experienced this with any of my other firearms in reloading.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Load bullets in both make of case, then measure over the loaded bullet. The difference would represent the different casewall thickness.

Also measure the diameter of the case heads of both.  Sounds like there might be a difference

I don't think that your bore/bullet fit is off. I'd guess the problem is a tight chamber.

Either way, stick to the Starline brass if that works.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Ranch 13-

I meant to add in last post.. crimp is in the crimp grove.  I have loaded some with the bullet deeper, did not help, I went so far as to load one round with no crimp... that did not help either.  Case still binds... so then I thought maybe the primer was causing the case to bulge  just a WA guess...  as stated... frustrated.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Sir Charles-

I will check what you said...  thanks a bunch...

[Ranch 13]

If the cartridge chambers after you resize it, then there's something going on in the next step. If you're crunching the cases seating a primer it's for a wonder you haven't set a primer off.
As Sir Charles pointed out, check the case mouth thickness, the Winchester brass might be thicker than the starline, and that would cause problems.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Ranch 13-

Cases not crunched when seating primer... I did not think of doing what Sir Charles stated... I just checked and there lies the problem... The Winchester Brass is thicker than the Starline.... problem solved... as SC stated... "stick to the Starline if that works".  Sorry for being dumb in regards to reloading 38-55.  Thanks to all who responded.

[Ranch 13]

Just use a smaller bullet in the Winchester cases, or use them for paper patching, that's where the 38-55 made it's fame and fortune anyway, as a midrange target cartridge.

[Old Top]

Tom,

I had much the same problem loading 44-40, for some reason they would not chamber the last 1/4 to 1/8 of an inch.  I solved the problem by running them back through a resizeing die with the deprimer removed.  That is the solution I found to make the problem you are speaking of go away.

Old Top

[Blackpowder Burn]

Tom,

The Winchester brass is thicker than the Starline, as you found out.  I could be proven wrong, but I did quite a bit of research on the 38-55 when I got my Marlin.  What appears to have happened is that Winchester uses 375 Winchester brass (which is a renamed 38-55 run at higher pressures) and simply stamps whichever "caliber" they are using that batch for on the rim.  Since the 375 runs at higher pressure, their brass is a little thicker.  My "research" seemed to indicate that if your bore was such that you needed a bullet of 0.380" or larger diameter, you normally had to use the Starline brass.  I've stuck with Starline and have found my Marlin to be very accurate and a lot of fun to shoot.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Old Top-  Thanks for that ... a local friend told me to do the same, he stated it solved his problem which was also with a 44-40.

Blackpowder Burn- I will remember that ...I had not thought of that ref the 375 brass...

I surely thank all of you pokes for the help.  Thanks to all.  Horn

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Old Top -

I did what a friend of mine local and what you said... remove the depriming pin and resize the loaded cartridge in the sizing die.  WORKED LIKE A CHAMP...even takes the bulge out of the neck of the brass ... That is the best advice I have received on this problem which was really frustrating me.  In my golden years cannot think of WHY I did not think of that...Laughing.  Many many thanks to you OLD TOP... PROBLEM IS SOLVED... the Winchester brass now loads the way it is suppose to.

[Old Top]

Tom,

I also use a Lee Factory Crimp Die as the last stage on reloading, makes sure the bullet is secured in the brass and cannot move back into the brass and mess up your whole day.

Top, Old one of

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I use fireformed .30-30 cases as alternatives.  The major problem is the erratic case weights (resulting in erratic case volume!) found even in cases of the same manufacturer. My fireformed cases are almost all of a uniforn 2.03" length.

The case necks are thinner, generally.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Sir Charles-  I thought of doing that, but then again as you stated the 30-30 cases are really thin.... probably would not hold up for too many reloads... might have to do that if the suppliers of brass get as bad as the powder makers are at present.  When you "fireformed the 30-30 brass for your 38-55.. What load in the 30-30 did you use for fireforming? 

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

Old Top -

I am using the Lee Factory Crimp as the last stage for the reloads....hmmmm let me restate that... when reloading the Winchester Brass the Factory Crimp Die is "next to last Stage" ... have added another STAGE for the Winchester Brass... RESIZING THE LOADED CARTRIDGE..... Laugh

I use a very tight crimp in the crimping grove... Someone told me that maybe my crimping was causing the problem.... but I found that it was not the crimp... it was the Winchester case... which when seating the .380" dia bullet was probably causing the case to expand to some degree. But using your suggestion ... that solved the problem... loads like a champ now. Thanks much.