Possible use of condemned military Spencer receivers for sporters?

[El Supremo]

Hello:
There have been a few postings here and references in other publications about Spencer sporters.  I am curious about the possible use of condemned large frame military receivers for some sporters. 

Mr. Marcot mentions on page 111 that some late 1864 - early 1865 large frame sporters were built with production numbered military receivers....which, for various reasons, were put aside.  After the war, sporters were produced in earnest using surplus military receivers and then newly made ones specifically for sporting use -- with serial numbers slightly below the usual place to clear the tang sight.

The 1852 Ordnance Regulations requires all small arms and principal parts to be inspected, and if failed, to be stamped with the letter "C" that is sufficiently deep so as to not be removed or interfere with use. 

Per Tony Beck and Marcot, the "c" was lower case size and appears on some issued Spencer parts. 
It is a sub-inspector's mark, not an indication of comdemned. 

To me this subtle twist would allow such items to be used for non military purposes!

Over the years I have seen several references to "condemned" small arms of many eras being in collections and the use of condemned receivers in experimental designs, coffee mill Sharps, for example.

A. M. "Tony" Beck Civil War Guns.com , Spencer's Repeaters, wrote:  " A few very rare and valuable sporting rifles were produced just after the Civil War, mostly from condemned parts."

There is also, per "Blair", the subtle issue of the Ord. Dept. being "picky" about the appearance of receivers. This caused some to be rejected for nothing more than how a receiver looked.  Nothing new. 

None of this surprises me.  The use of condemned military contract parts exists in all eras.  According to a friend that is the General Counsel for a very respected small arms military supplier, this continues today with rifles reaching the civilian market.

The wrinkles are two fold:
1.  The Marcot use of "...for various reasons" begs clarification.  Why wouldn't those reasons be enumerated?
2.  Military contractors have always pulled inspection items from production BEFORE reaching government inspection, when such were expected to fail so that they would not be stamped"C".  In the case of serial numbered items such as receivers, they were stamped, but not accepted. 

So my guess is that condemned, military production, serial numbered receivers were "set aside" and possibly used in the early sporters.

Please help me with this issue.  Thanks.

El Supremo

[Ibgreen]

My 1868NM lends credence to your set asside theory.  Aside from a small w on the barrel, it is devoid of all markings.  Not even a spencer stamp or serial number.  My gun spent some time in France.

[El Supremo]

The silence is interesting.  Has anyone seen a Spencer with a "C" stamped on it anywhere?

Hello, Herbert:  Any thoughts, please?  Thanks.

El Supremo

[Blair]

El Supremo,

Yes! I have seen the "C" stamp on Spencer arms that were not condemned.
Starting with the Navy Rifles and into the Sporting Rifles post War.
The "C", stamping for "Condemned" is marked on all major external parts according to the Ordnance Department requirements.
This is not to say that "some" condemned parts were not used in some Sporting Rifles production.
My best,
Blair

[El Supremo]

Hello and thanks, Blair:
Please explain how "C" for condemned can be on rifles that were not condemned.  It seems to be either inconsistent or at odds with the "Reg's".

Also, your observation of the "C" imprint at least confirms to me, at least, that such parts found their way into some finished rifles/carbines. 

My first hand experience with modern firearms is that many substandard parts are never scrapped and ultimately find their way into secondary channels.  One well documented example was the large batch of M14 TRW bolts that ended up in clones. 

My personal opinion is that Spencers were no different than many other CW contract firearms that had condemned parts used in at least sporter versions. 

Many thanks for your enlightening report of "C" on some Spencers.  If you can tell us, please,  where would the "C" have been placed on a receiver or a barrel?

Regards,
El Supremo

[Two Flints]

If you visit this link, mention is made of a "C" stamp . . .

http://fontainesauction.com/cgi/viewlot.php?sale=1252&lot=61

but in the photos offered, you really can't see the "C".

"C" on the tang area of the Spencer

Could the "C" found on Spencers also be an inspector's mark or stamp for Spencers shipped to Canada

Two Flints

[El Supremo]

Hooray for Two Flints!  Now we're getting somewhere.  Thanks so much Two Flints.

I don't think that the government would create an obvious conflict involving the use of "C" for both condemned and an inspector's mark.  Just my common sense guess, but our government isn't always logical.

Now for another puzzling question:
Why, with all of Mr.  Marcot's research, wasn't this aspect involving condemned major parts have been in his book?  Now I wonder what else does our SSS Group know about either major errors or material omissions in that otherwise wonderful book.  As one widely acknowledged military small arms historian told me:  "I wish I had back everything I wrote before I was 45 years old."

Mr. Marcot's phrase "....which, for various reasons, were put aside" begs an answer about what he knew about those various reasons.  Surely he would not have written it that way without digging.  If someone can reach him it would be especially revealing to learn more from him. 

Respectfully,
El Supremo

[Blair]

Please read page #47 of Marcot's book on the Navy Spencer Rifles.
This will tell you about the usage of a "C" stamping, and where it can be found on ,at least, some Spencer made guns before 1866.
(Other than "C" for "condemned")
My best,
Blair

[El Supremo]

Thanks, Blair:
Missed that; thanks.

Marcot wrote that he could not attribute the small "c" on the left side of the stock and under the forestock on some Navy rifles to final inspectors.  Since the 1866 Navy Reg's required the traditional anchor stamp and it wasn't on many rifles, including the ones with the small "c", I wonder if such rifles were actually accepted by the Navy, even if the stamp did not mean condemned.  They could be a one-off rifle variant, not accepted by the Navy.  If condemned, and I cannot say they were condemned without a "C" on the major failed part(s), they are another puzzle.

The "C"  on the carbine receiver tang in Two Flint's posting seems to be more apt to indicate condemned (to me).

Beyond Mr. Marcot, maybe Mr. Beck could be reached by someone to have him expand upon his reference to condemned.

From a mechanical view, would a condemned receiver or barrel mean the piece was dangerous to shoot? 

It occurs to me that a Spencer, either of (apparently) military or sporter variety with a "C" stamped on a major component would not have been issued for military service in the U.S.  To have allowed such a piece to enter military service would have repercussions.  So.... what would we conclude?

Are such built with condemned parts relative junk that found their way into the market?  Would they be worth a lot less to collectors?

Just rolling all this around in my mind.  Perhaps it's cabin fever.  It just seems odd that I do not recall any direct references to condemned parts in Mr. Marcot's book when it should have been an obvious topic.

Thanks for helping on a Friday evening.  Good night.
El Supremo

. 

[El Supremo]

Oops, Hello, Two Flints:

Have you ever had a serial number match an issued carbine or rifle with a "C" inspection mark, please?  Thanks.

[Two Flints]

El Supremo,

No, not to my knowledge.  In 9 years of moderating SSS, I think I have only had 4 or 5 exact serial # matches   And I don't recall the "C" stamp being mentioned by those lucky owners.

Two Flints

[El Supremo]

Thanks again, Two Flints:

Hopefully others here will add their knowledge.  Herbert must be out of touch.  I will ask some well regarded CW antique arms sellers and one other long-time Spencer historian during the coming week and report.

Regards,
El Supremo

[Herbert]

This is a question I have never been able to find answer for,I have seen it stamped on two 1860 carbines but these carbines did not have any sighn of final aceptance cartouche,I have never looked at a Navy Rifle so can not coment on them.The c stamp does show up on most Sporting Rifles I have examined but not all.I have always thought the c was for condemed but the Navey Rifles put this into question,even the use of condemed parts on the top of the line product seems to me a bit unlickly but who knows,the condemed parts would have been out of guage or have faults in the metal so they would have been much harder to finish into a compleet rifle.Next time I get hold of a Sporting rifle with the c stamp parts I will measure the parts in question to see if the are in gauge,if they are the c must stand for somthing ellse becides condemed

[El Supremo]

Thanks so much Herbert:

I searched via Google related to "c" stamp on Spencers and a post contained a photo of a Springfield post war conversion with a lined barrel.  There was a small c stamped beside the sling bar screw hole.  The owner said it meant conversion.

Tony Beck is aware of this CAS/SSS topic and has some interesting info that he will try to post soon.  He is very busy right now.  Joe Bilby told a friend that there were many post war military and sporters with that were cobbled together as the Company began to suffer financially.  Essentially, the sub standard parts went into post war carbines and rifles. 

If anyone can reach Mr. Marcot, his help would be welcome.

Regards.

[Herbert]

To confuse things a little more I have a 1865 Burncide Spencer that has the c stamp on one side of the leaver and the L exceptance stamp on the other side of the leaver( there are refrences to Spencer parts being regected because of scale on the metal surface then being put right with the removal of the scale,I belive this may be the explanitaion for the two stamps on this leaver)only a gess though but the c stamp on booth Burncide Spencers and Spencer made arms reinfoces the theroy that the c stamp is a goverment inspection stamp

[El Supremo]

Hello:
Information from a respected Spencer expert and longtime SSS contributor sent to me via PM indicated:

Usually a "c" (on any part) means condemned for CONTRACTOR arms (such as Spencer, Colt, Sharps, etc.).

But if the small arm was purchased (by the government) on the open market BEFORE contract deliveries, the "c"  could be an internal armory inspection mark. 

Post-war sporters were often assembled with condemned parts.

BUT, for commercially sold post-war MILITARY models, scrap and condemned parts were used and hand fitted, usually, but not always with two-digit final reassembly match-up numbers AND NO stock cartouches.  The contributor of this information has a Spencer with two-digit stamped parts with NO cartouche  in his collection.  He added that fitting a centerfire block ass'y. to this well out of specification piece was a chore.

Clearly, Mr. Marcot's fine book and the wealth of original Spencer information on our Forum includes enough examples of exceptions, that nothing is for sure.  Hope this helps in the future.

Respectfully,
Kevin