Can you safely draw from a reverse holster?

Oregon Bill · February 04, 2014, 07:18:12 PM

Just wondering if it is possible to draw, say, an 1860 Colt from a regulation, flapped, butt-forward holster using the historically accurate twist draw without violating current CAS/NCOWS safety rules regarding the 170 plane. I realize one would likely stage the holster by pinning the flap open under the belt.

Mean Bob Mean · February 04, 2014, 08:06:16 PM

Quote from: Oregon Bill on February 04, 2014, 07:18:12 PM
Just wondering if it is possible to draw, say, an 1860 Colt from a regulation, flapped, butt-forward holster using the historically accurate twist draw without violating current CAS/NCOWS safety rules regarding the 170 plane. I realize one would likely stage the holster by pinning the flap open under the belt.

Twist draw is not allowed. I twist draw and had to turn facing sideways to get away with it at my first shoot but they asked me to stage them strong sided in the future.

Major 2 · February 04, 2014, 08:39:29 PM

the answers in two parts

Can you safely draw from a reverse holster?

Can you do ? Yes.... May you do it ? NO !

To qualify.... for over thirty years of mounted cavalry reenacting, I did just as you state....

In NCOWS as in SASS the RO's will not allow it.... considering the 170 and safety it is wise they do not.

John Smith · February 04, 2014, 10:28:41 PM

I have to disagree, the cavalry or twist draw is SASS legal, as long as you do it without breaking the 170. I don't think anyone can show me a SASS rule against it. Here's a video on how to do it safely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx26y3uq2IE&feature=youtu.be

Major 2 · February 05, 2014, 07:00:52 AM

John... "I don't think anyone can show me a SASS rule against it" ..you're are probably right

I didn't say, there was a rule...

What I said was " Can you do ? Yes.... May you do it ? NO !

"....RO's will not allow it "

I've not met one yet that will allow it ...stating the 170 Rule, and one does not normally argue with the RO's

John Smith · February 05, 2014, 07:38:36 AM

Quote from: Major 2 on February 05, 2014, 07:00:52 AM
John... "I don't think anyone can show me a SASS rule against it" ..you're are probably right

I didn't say, there was a rule...

What I said was " Can you do ? Yes.... May you do it ? NO !

"....RO's will not allow it "

I've not met one yet that will allow it ...stating the 170 Rule, and one does not normally argue with the RO's

I guess that's where you and I differ, Ro's are supposed to apply/enforce the rules, not make up new ones because the shooter "might" break an existing one. I would not allow a RO to time me who did that, and if you are one of those, you are a poor RO.

Shotgun Franklin · February 05, 2014, 08:40:48 AM

The problem being; you may well be able, that other guy may not.
Laws and Rules are made for those who likely can't.

River City John · February 05, 2014, 08:42:36 AM

Our esteemed Editor being one who draws from a reverse holster safely. Holsters he uses are civilian half-flap or Slim Jim, although neither with the more pronounced cant of some typical military full flap.

As long as the finger is out of the trigger guard and the swivel motion is completed while the barrel is still within the holster, it's no different than drawing from a strong side holster. Holstering just reverses the procedure, again completing the swivel of the body of the revolver after barrel is inserted into the holster.

I suppose it's a case by case thing according to a posse's home rules. Our safety officer at BRR has never suggested he was unsafe in doing it that way.

RCJ

John Smith · February 05, 2014, 08:54:02 AM

Quote from: Shotgun Franklin on February 05, 2014, 08:40:48 AM
The problem being; you may well be able, that other guy may not.
Laws and Rules are made for those who likely can't.

That's exactly my point, there aren't any rules against it.

Ol Gabe · February 05, 2014, 09:47:04 AM

NCOWS Pards & Pardettes, All,
Just for the sake of discussion only...
The question above seems to be centered on a belted holster, however, the concept also is applicable to those that wear and use a shoulder holster exclusively, as in a Pinkerton Detective character or somesuch type.
So, the question now arises, does that type of holster cause the same consternation that the original questioner posed?
Generally I would think not, I used one for years in NCOWS events and always followed the '170 rule'. I wore it so that the revolver was under my left arm and when ready to use it on a stage always turned to my right to pull and engage the targets. I never had any trouble doing same and never was questioned or chastised by the RO or others, in fact was complimented many times for 'style points' as I made it a point to practice the move to give it a bit of 'flair' on the line.
So, for what it is worth, I would say 'YES', you can safely draw from a reverse holster, BUT you must follow the '170 rule' and practice, practice, practice before you try it at at an NCOWS event, and even then show what you are going to do to the RO before you do it to give him/her a heads-up on your concerns for safety and ability to do same.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
NCOWS #925

OklaTom · February 05, 2014, 10:16:56 AM

I occasionally use reverse draw holsters. RCJ has it right on how to safely draw and reholster. Gabe has a point, too, with shoulder holsters, which is also no different from cross draw holsters. There are no rules that I know of against using any of the holster types I just mentioned. The rule is about what to do relative to the "170 degree plane". It is the RO's responsibility to ensure that regardless of the type of holsters worn, the shooter does not break that plane (or otherwise commit a safety infraction). The problem isn't the holster, it is how the individual uses it. I have been swept before by someone wearing two strong-side holsters that were pushed too close together in the front, and by someone missing the holster trying to put their revolver in the holster, causing the barrel to tip back behind the holster. Like I said, it is the up to the RO to be sure that safety is followed, not to dictate what holster someone may use (unless it violates some other established NCOWS rule or regulation).

PJ Hardtack · February 05, 2014, 11:06:36 AM

Some people have questioned our club policy of disallowing drawing from holsters on club property unless you have been checked out by a shooting discipline that uses holsters - CAS, IPSC, IDPA .... Your membership card must be stamped - "HOLSTER".

IPSC has long had their "Black Badge" course, (I've been an instructor) but their has never been a CAS/SASS equivalent, for reasons that escape me.

Why did we make the rule? People were buying those S&W 'range kits' that consist of the MP pistol, holster and mag pouches. Others were acquiring a 'tacticool' drop leg holster and showing up on the range to play 'Robo Cop'. They were seen walking to their vehicles from the firing line with loaded guns, etc.

To my knowledge, our CAS group is the only one that requires a thorough training period that covers drawing and re-holstering from ALL holsters. We've put on several clinics in the last couple of years to get people qualified.

It is the shooter's responsibility to guarantee safe gun handling. The RO is there to ensure you do not injure yourself or anyone else through an unsafe act, but the onus is on the individual. The RO can only act after the fact.

Instructing is where I learned that it's well nigh impossible to teach a male over puberty anything about gun handling without injuring his pride. He's seen the movies and he's "always done it this way". This not the case with women, who do what they are asked to do with success.

My wife came into CAS and IPSC with no prior knowledge or training in gun handling other than what she received at one of our clinics and her "Black Badge" course. Her gun handling is exemplary and she is often pointed out as a role model for new shooters.

Oregon Bill · February 05, 2014, 11:38:54 AM

PJ, I find your post most educational. Thank you.
I would hope somewhere, some day, that a shooter attempting as best he or she can to emulate an American soldier from the 19th century would be allowed to draw a holstered revolver in the way that person was taught by the United States Army.

St. George · February 05, 2014, 11:46:12 AM

As long as both 'Human Error' and the ever-looming spectre of 'Liability' are present - that's not gonna happen with live ammunition.

Scouts Out!

Will Ketchum · February 05, 2014, 11:48:41 AM

Montana Slim, who has won The Pistoleer class at the Nationals for more years than I can remember has almost always used a twist draw for both revolvers. I really isn't that difficult to do safely. Grip the guns with palms out, life slightly to loosen, twist the revolver while still in the holster and continue the draw in the normal fashion, all the while maintaining the 170 degree. I use to do it years ago but because of my persona change went to a more conventional draw.

Will Ketchum

PJ Hardtack · February 05, 2014, 11:57:08 AM

One way of approaching it might be to go to a designated "Safety Area" and PROVE to the CRO that you can properly and safely draw from the military holster.
We've all been to events where some of the gun handling with other rigs has been marginal to downright dangerous. It's a matter of training - or the lack of it.

I've seen guns hit the dirt from loose but legal 'Slim Jim' x-draw and shoulder rigs. IPSC USED to have a "holster retention" requirement that has gone by the board, along with all other pretentions at being "practical". I'm back into that game with my old Davis leather single stack rig that has beaucoup tension. People laugh. Let 'em.

You had to prove retention and it could be challenged by a test. Every match had a stage requiring re-holstering to negotiate an obstacle (tunnel, barricade, fence, etc.) and many came to grief, their 'cocked & locked' 1911's hitting the dirt.

Their is no way today's IPSC 'race gunners' are going to risk their optically sighted space guns hitting the dirt. Once drawn, the gun never gets re-holstered until the command to do so.

Major 2 · February 05, 2014, 04:41:55 PM

Quote from: John Smith on February 05, 2014, 07:38:36 AM
John... "I don't think anyone can show me a SASS rule against it" ..you're are probably right

I didn't say, there was a rule... Wink

What I said was " Can you do ? Yes.... May you do it ? NO !

"....RO's will not allow it "

I've not met one yet that will allow it ...stating the 170 Rule, and one does not normally argue with the RO's Lips Sealed

I guess that's where you and I differ, Ro's are supposed to apply/enforce the rules, not make up new ones because the shooter "might" break an existing one. I would not allow a RO to time me who did that, and if you are one of those, you are a poor RO.

I guess I should qualify .... where I said ..."I've not met one yet that will allow it" I should add "at our Range "

Cliff Fendley · February 05, 2014, 08:08:20 PM

How would it be different from any other straight hang holster? One just has to turn and tilt the firearm and have the muzzle forward as it leaves the holster.

PJ Hardtack · February 06, 2014, 10:49:15 AM

Training, training and more training .... did I forget to mention the importance of training .... ?

Our club has a policy of "no holster wearing" if you are not checked out by someone in IPSC or CAS. Don't shoot those disciplines? You STILL have to be checked out. Don't want to comply? Go home. If push comes to shove, your membership card is so stamped on the reverse.

The only holster we outright ban are the muzzle-to-the-rear under arm shoulder holsters. If you have to ask why, you haven't looked into the barrel of a loaded 9mm, .40 or .45 peeking at you from somebody's armpit.

rdstrain49 · February 06, 2014, 03:04:05 PM

Whenever I see the lengths to which clubs are forced just to accommodate individuals that insist on doing both stupid and unsafe stuff, makes me realize how fortunate I am to have my own range. I really feel for all those who must deal with above described individuals. Let me be clear, I am in no way referring to the main topic of reverse holsters.