History of octagonal (rifle) barrels

[TheOtherLeft]

Hi pards,

What's the history behind octagonal rifle barrels?

I have a Uberti 1873 Special Sporting Short rifle with the octagonal barrel and comparing it to a round barrel rifle, eg Marlin 1894, mine weighs a lot more.

Did the octagonal barrel come about due to manufacturing issues, ruggedness, better heat resistance/increased accuracy, or did people just like something different?

If my Uberti (with pistol grip etc) came in a round barrel variant I would've bought that to save weight.

Cheers.

[Pettifogger]

People like the look.  In the good old days Winchester offered rifles with round barrels and the optional octagon barrel.  Octagon barrels outsold round barrels by a large margin.

[Grenadier]

It probably came about due to barrels originally being forge welded up from billets of iron. I have seen 15th century gun barrels that have octagonal cross sections.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have read that when barrels were hand forged, it was much easier for the 'smith to file flats on the outside of the forged,reamed and staightened billet than to try and get it round. From what I've read, Grenadier is right.

After that, it becomes a tradition and sign of quality

[Blackfoot]

After that, it becomes a tradition and sign of quality
[/quote]

Oh!!, I haven't read that book.

Lafitte

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

After that, it becomes a tradition and sign of quality


Oh!!, I haven't read that book.

Lafitte

You don't have to read a book to make an observation.  And especially not to have an opinion

[chisholm trail kid]

In the old days the primary source of power was water. Water wheels were used to grind grain. Because  most earl gunmakers did not have lathes, they used the large grind stone to grind flats on their barrels. They hung the barrel straight down and it fed by gravity. When one flat was ground, they turned the barrel until and started over. The gunmaker did not have to watch it so he could do other things.

[cal44walker]

All of the right answers are above. In the very early days the vast majority of gunsmiths did not have the equipment to turn a very long thin rifle barrel so they usually draw filed them with flats on, 8 being the typical number. The look stayed popular despite the development of lathes that could turn a barrel exterior round with a high degree of ease and precision.

cal44walker

[Blair]

I have worked as a 17th and 18th Century blacksmith as well as an 18th Century Gunsmith at Colonial Williamsburg, VA.
I guess it is best I stay out of this discussion.
You all have fun.
My best,
Blair

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have worked as a 17th and 18th Century blacksmith as well as an 18th Century Gunsmith at Colonial Williamsburg, VA.
I guess it is best I stay out of this discussion.
You all have fun.
My best,
Blair

WHY!

[cal44walker]

Don't stay out Blair, if I'm not correct about the info I posted then I'd rather know about it asap. The research I read on antique rifle barrel production concluded that it was far easier for gunsmiths to draw file flats on a barrel than to turn its outside diameter. However round barrels were certainly around that's for sure, most muskets being round barreled. Plus an octagonal barrel should also be less flexible for the same total mass as a round one so that might have been an advantage that they wanted.

[Blair]

Sir Charles, and cal44walker,

Thank you both for you vote of confidence.

I have to be honest... "NO" one is specifically wrong or incorrect with their statements they have made so far.
However, they are rather general.
A reference to a time or time period that is not very specific.
A lack of machines and/or tools to this kind of work. (is just not true)
A comparison to modern ideals of stock removal without knowing what they did in, (And I maybe incorrect in this statement) with what some call they did "olden times". (Or what ever that term was or meant).
Without knowing or understanding that particular mind set of that period and this one... stock removal (modern) and stock re shaping (old), one can not began to understand what is going on?
Is anybody confused yet?
This is why it is best I stay out of this.
Thank you.
My best,
Blair

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I read a book I found in my library, about the single most significant tool of the last millennium.  The author decided on the screwdriver, but of course that simple tool could not exist without the screw.  AND, Screws were not required until gunmakers sought a way to attach a lock plate to a gun;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Good_Turn_(book)

I know about the screw, and the thread cutting lathe, and centerless grinding and Eli Whitney but you are right! Sir!

We are clueless about gunmaking machinery, so why not embark on the Herculean Task?

[ChuckBurrows]

mid-1800's Barrel Grinding -






as for long thin round barrels - they were widely available both in the 18th and 19th Centuries - all the trade guns (made in the thousands) were made with either full length or half length round barrels, As well smoothbore fowlers and later shotguns were round barreled or again half-round - Blair will be able to offer more on the how-to of round barrels

[Blair]

The oldest known "Rifled" barrel (that I know of) dates back to about the 1480's in one of the many City States that make up what we now call Germany and was Octagonal.
I feel safe in saying that this may easily be the origins of the "History of octagonal (rifle) barrels".
Firearms, However, was not new technology in 1480!

What most people do not realize is that what is termed by Archeologist as the "IRON AGE" dates back to about 3,500 years, with "Steel" fallowing very shortly thereafter.
The metal/material or what a refer to as the "stock" is very expensive to acquire, and difficult to produce into a useable product.
This material is not wasted through "stock" removal (Modern Method) when it can be reshaped through forging/hammering into the desired shape (Olden Days Method) before doing any finishing work.

So, where does one begin?
The 40 +or- years of what we think of as the "Cowboy" period (1860 to 1900)? Everything was already in place by those dates and had been for hundreds to thousands of years. Where does one begin?

[cal44walker]

Very interesting.....keep going! I love learning this kind of stuff 

[bowiemaker]

This is a little off-topic regarding octagonal barrels but still related. The Frazier International History Museum in Louisville, KY has a neat display of the gunsmith shop of John Smith who made guns from 1832 to 1884 in Ohio and California. John Smith was third generation gunsmith. His grandfather, Peter Smith (1756-1833), worked in Pennsylvania and his father, David Smith, was listed as a gunsmith in Ohio.



Historians have estimated that there more than thirty gunsmiths working in Kentucky before 1806 and more than one hundred by 1836.

Part of the display shows how a musket barrel was forged around an iron rod on a specially shaped anvil from a flat iron bar called a "skelp". Once the tube was completed and welded, the inside was bored to the correct diameter.




Some were rifled manually using a special wooden boring vise with guides that controlled the twist of the cutters. The barrels was ground to its final shape and polished. Rifling was demonstrated at the 2013 NCOWS Convention.

[Blair]

cal44 walker,

Indeed.
It is very interesting. But, requires years of research, about 3,500 years of research!

No one on a forum like this wants to invest this kind of time in something that is only "interesting". They come hear for the "quick fix".
That ain't gona happen! Not with me!

So, lets see if we can cut to the chase?
Got a beginning and end date you would like to start with?
Not meant to pick on you specifically, it is a question meant for all!
My best,
Blair

[Blair]

bowiemaker,

Thank you for reposting this information.

I have also been looking for film/video "The Gunsmith of Williamsburg", done about 1969.

This film/video may help answer or address a lot of folks questions regarding "older" arms making techniques. By at least one hundred years earlier than Cowboy stuff. (two very different time periods , but the technology was already in place)
My best,
Blair

[Grenadier]

The Gunsmith of Williamsburg

It's available for free on Youtube.