Original 1866 Yellowboy

[Icebox Bob]

I am studying an item we have in our local museum - a Winchester 1866 carbine that made its way to our area in the 1880's.  By it's serial number it was made in 1880.  The only anomaly is the 15 1/2 inch barrel.  Is there any possibility this was a factory option?  The standard carbine barrel is 20 inches and this one has the carbine sight.  Any comments or thoughts?

[Short Knife Johnson]

Hi Bob, long time, no see.

Maybe check with the BBHC in Cody.  Dan or Warren might be able to help you out.

[Icebox Bob]

SKJ - I was thinking about that.  I phoned them a while ago and the short response was I could get a full report if I joined their society.

By the way I will post some pictures of the Museum's original Henry some time.  It is quite a sight - factory engraved.  Unfortunately we have no background story, just that it has been in the museum since before 1932.

I will be rebuilding the display cabinet in the museum over the winter to better display the firearms.

[matt45]

Quite a rare beast, an original engraved Henry.  Any idea whose it was, or how it made its way to your neck of the woods?

[Coffinmaker]

Back in the way back, Winchester would build just about anything you could ask for on a special order.  Just based on the pictures you have, the '66 on display does not look like a factory special order.  Looks more like a bob job by some local gunsmith.
I have seen several and fondled several special order "Trapper" 1873s made my Winchester as short as 14 inch barrels.  I built myself several "Trappers" with 16 1/8 inch barrels.  Really fun rifles.
Oh, a '66 chambered in .44 Flat would still hold 10+ rounds in a 15 1/2 inch magazine tube.

Coffinmaker

[Icebox Bob]

Quite a rare beast, an original engraved Henry.  Any idea whose it was, or how it made its way to your neck of the woods?

Nope!  I would sure like to know though...  The Prince Albert Historical Society has existed since 1886 but the archive and artifact collection was not formally inventoried until 1932.  How long the Henry had been in the collection and who donated it are not recorded.
Here are a couple of pictures.

[Blair]

I am not sure just what this discussion is about?
Is the discussion about variations in Winchester Carbine M-1866's or in Henry Rifles?
Blair

[Short Knife Johnson]

I should venture up there one of these days to come see you guys.

[Icebox Bob]

Coffinmaker answered the basic question.

After that its like Mae West's quote, "I used to be Snow White, but I drifted."

I am actively researching the back story for the 1866 Yellowboy carbine.  The story has the carbine coming from Chief Big Bear when he surrendered to the North West Mounted Police after the Riel Rebellion in 1885.  The deeper I go the morre likely it appears to be true.

[Buck Stinson]

It would be of great help if you gave us the serial number or at least the serial range.  Yes, Winchester would make up a gun in just about any configuration a customer might want, BUT NOT in the 1866 models.  If the forend is 8" in length from receiver to end of forearm (it's not) then further research is necessary.  If the forend is 8 1/2" to 9" in length using the same measurement as above, then the barrel and tube have been cut.  Even from the photos, I can tell you that this gun has been cut down and was never ordered as a trapper from the factory.  More info is necessary.

[matt45]

So the modification was done while it was in Chief Big Bear's possession?  Not being an expert on 1866's, I'll pose another question- How often (if ever) was the front sight built on the forward barrel band?

[Blair]

Just my opinion, I believe the barrel and mag tube have been cut back.
Look at the second photo in the original images, showing the muzzle end. There appears to be a flat on the bottom of the muzzle. This is not a flat at all but where the barrel was drilled for the front barrel band screw to pass through. This holds the band, mag tube and barrel all together.
Again, just my opinion.
My best,
Blair

[Icebox Bob]

Thanks for all of this.

I don't recall the exact serial number.  I believe it was in the 153,000's.  Which would be a 1879/1880 manufacture from the information I found.

I will make a couple of better measurements of the fore stock length this evening.

Chief Big Bear and his people spent time in the area between Medicine Hat, the Cypress Hills and into Montana from 1879 up until he returned north by 1883.  In 1883 and 1884 they were in the area between Fort Carleton/Duck lake and Fort Pitt.  He could have aquired the carbine at any of those places.  The band under his leadership numbered from 500 to 2,000 through that period.

[Icebox Bob]

So the modification was done while it was in Chief Big Bear's possession?  Not being an expert on 1866's, I'll pose another question- How often (if ever) was the front sight built on the forward barrel band?

I went looking at some online examples of Yellowboy carbines and found an example of the sight being on the front band:
http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1866/M66-015089/details.shtml

and not:
http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1866/M66-169045/details.shtml

Both of these have 20" barrels. The first one has a carbine style rear sight and the second a rifle sight.  More knowledgeable people than me can comment on the significance.

[Icebox Bob]

It would be of great help if you gave us the serial number or at least the serial range.  Yes, Winchester would make up a gun in just about any configuration a customer might want, BUT NOT in the 1866 models.  If the forend is 8" in length from receiver to end of forearm (it's not) then further research is necessary.  If the forend is 8 1/2" to 9" in length using the same measurement as above, then the barrel and tube have been cut.  Even from the photos, I can tell you that this gun has been cut down and was never ordered as a trapper from the factory.  More info is necessary.

The forend stock is 9 inches long.

[Buck Stinson]

Chief Big Bears 1866 carbine was probably shipped in 1880 or 1881 if the serial number is in the 153,000 range.  Actually the ledgers for these serial ranges still exist at the Cody Museum, so a factory letter could be had for this gun if the exact serial number were sent in.  Winchester changed the front sight on their 1866 carbines in approximately the 150,000 serial range, give or take a few thousand.  They changed the front sight placement on the 1873 carbines around the same time (1880-1881).  From this point on, both the 1866 and 1873 carbines, as well as all carbine models after that period,  have the post type front sight as standard.  As far as the rear sight is concerned, both of the '66 carbines on Rare Winchesters have standard carbine rear sights.  The top photo shows the earlier style short flip up and the second photo shows the standard short leaf carbine rear sight.  When this sight was introduced, it became the standard sight on ALL models of Winchester saddle carbines from then on.  My Henry marked 1866 carbine is in the 19XXX serial range (circa 1868).  It has the short flip up sight.  My 4th model '66 carbine has the short leaf rear sight.  This carbine, in the 166xxx serial range was shipped in 1888.  Hope this has been of some interest.

[Blair]

Icebox,

Perhaps a bit of historical back ground will help in your search?

M-1866 Winchester's were produced from 1866 to 1899 in Carbine, Rifle and Musket lengths (a few being finished after production ends from left over parts).
During those 33 years, there were 4 variations produced, commonly called types. From type I, II, III and IV. (There are no known exact dates when each type came into common production. Rather, there seems to be quite a bit of overlap between each type introduction.) The most common type in the todays "reproduction '66's" is the basic type IV.

Not knowing what the SS# is on the Carbine photos you posted... and based off of the features it exhibits, I would guess it is either a very late type III or early type IV. The rear and front sights indicate the type III. Location of the SS#, and the style of the font used, Maybe of help in idetification ?

There is some customization/special order going on within the 1866's, but is often considered somewhat rear. "Trapper" length variations are known but difficult to trace back to being a Factory done jobs within the M- 1866 production.

Please keep in mind, what I am providing herein, is at best, just a summery of the basic variations Winchester provided. It is a complex area of study, but I hope this info helps.
My best,
Blair

(NOTE,
Buck, I saw your message after I had posted. I don't think I said anything that conflicts with your well stated posting.)

[Forty Rod]

Norm Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms states that 24" was standard with 20" carbines and 27" muskets offered.

Barnes' History of Winchester Firearms also only shows 20", 24", and 27".

Remember, though, every time someone states without reservation that something is so..... or not so..... someone will most assuredly show up with evidence that the original someone was wrong.

[Blair]

Forty Rod,

What you suggest is a very real issue.
But these writes have to address what is known as "standard" and/or "Most Common".

The M-1866's are somewhat more limited than their counterparts in the Winchester M-1873 and M-1892's variations.
However, variation with the "Standard" and/or "Most Common" are known to exist! Ranging over into the Custom and/or Special Orders of the later model types.
My best,
Blair

[Forty Rod]

I agree with you on Barnes, but Flayderman is pretty good at mentioning oddities and special order stuff, maybe not in great detail, but he usually mentions it.