Switch from .45 to .38?

[SPQR476]

Per my recent posts, I need another set of guns since my 17yr old boy is coming along from time to time now (he's all about the .45s) I've got all the configuration details sorted out for the revolvers, thanks for the input--I'll get another set of SS Rugers and try SBH hammers, no half cocks.

I'm all .45 right now.  A '92, a '73, and my current Rugers.  I carry one of the Rugers along when I head to the mountains, so they serve dual duty, and a 200gr MBC RNFP at about 600fps, or a home cast 200 over 20gr of FFg with filler are my CAS loads.   The dillon is set, I've got a bunch of components, all my leather is .45 loops. I like .45s for their versatility outside CAS.

I thought I'd be happy shooting classic cowboy and just having fun, but I ended up shooting GF after the first match, with some traditional thrown in if there are too many split revolver stages at a match.  I'm no threat at EOT, but my competitive nature is getting the best of me. I've got a Johnny meadows Baikal coming that should save me a half second on every SG reload over my TTN based on running a borrowed gun vs mine, and I'm wondering if it's worth it to switch from .45 to .38s. 

It would mean new components, some new leather, dies and conversions, and loading two calibers for when the boy shoots with me-plus the guns, but I'm getting more guns anyway so we can shoot together without chasing each other all over from unloading table to loading table.

I know I might save a few seconds over the course of a match with 105s at 600 in a .38 and 4oz heavier pistols, but there's probably a good bit more to be saved with just more shooting and dry practice, and I'm putting that time in, too.

My questions, after all that rambling, are this: Ammo cost aside, when, if ever, does it make sense to switch to .38spl from where I'm at?  Can a guy be truly competitive in this game with .45s, maybe with some 160s and some .45CS brass? Or am I likely to reach a point of frustration later on if I don't make the switch?

Thanks!
Sam "The Bishop" Parker

[Garand]

I shot Cowboy Action for 12+ years with a pair of Ruger Vaqueros and a Marlin M1894S in .44 magnum, about 3-4 years ago my wife decided that she wanted to shoot also. So out I go to buy her a set of pistols and a carbine in .38 spl/.357 mag. It took me 1 full season trying to keep up reloading 2 different calibers until I got fed up. Now we both shoot .38 spl, and I spend far less time at the reloading bench!

[Blair]

Sam,

Just my suggestion;
Shoot against yourself. Your abilities to hit the target. Get a "clean" stage will put you seconds ahead of those that can "miss" very fast shooting mouse fart loads with every stage shot.
Speed will come with actual shooting practice.
My best,
Blair

[SPQR476]

Always do shoot against myself, and work hard to improve.  

For reference, I'm talking about taking my mid-20s to low 30s stage times with my current .45s and hammered double, depending on the complexity and props, and improving from there.  I'm no threat at EOT, but I'm finishing fairly well locally for a greenhorn.  I come from about 20 years of shooting USPSA and 3-gun, and I want to at least be able to compete for the top spots locally...and there are some fairly fast fellas around here, with overall avg low to mid-20s stage times that I'm up against.  I've got a lot to learn about this cowboy stuff, but I'm hoping to avoid my guns being too much of a limiting factor now or in the not too distant future.

The guys I want to beat are all shooting .38s, and I have no frame of reference as to where my .45s aren't going to allow me to improve.  Maybe there are guys running .45s as fast as these guys are running .38s, in which case I just need to keep woodshedding and maybe look at some slightly lighter bullets.

[Pettifogger]

People buy .45s cause they just have to have big guns.  Then they start shooting CAS and quickly start trying to figure out how to download their .45s so they feel like .38s.  Unless you are shooting in a Category that requires .45s, the .38s will always be cheaper to load for and will run faster for the average shooter.  No matter what you do, you can never get a .45 to recoil as softly as a .38.  And, recoil is what slows down your shot to shot times.

[Abilene]

I was a .44 and .45 guy when I started.  Then two things happened.  First, I won a .357 '73 carbine (the day after buying a .44 Spcl '66).  And then the '51 Richards-Mason conversions came along and I loved that octagonal barrel, which only comes in .38.  I didn't replace the big calibers, just got more guns and shoot whatever I feel like (I only occasionally break 30 seconds).  I even bought a 32-20 '73 last year, not to go faster but just because it is a cool historic cartridge and the price on the gun couldn't be beat.  It's all good.

Now, as for your leather...no need to buy new stuff if you like what you have.  I have not seen more than a 1-round reload (rifle) in a number of years.  And some of the go-fast guys seem to jack live rounds out every so often and need to load from the belt.  But you can get by with just a simple belt slide to hold 5 or 10 .38's, or wrap a piece of rawhide through your .45 belt loops and it will then hold .38's.  Or if you really want .38 loops just buy a new belt for your existing holsters.

[PJ Hardtack]

Then again, some of us shoot .45's and .44's 'cause it's 'Cowboy'. We don't download to 'mouse fart' potential and couldn't care less what the Cowboy race gunners do. If I have to worry about the cost of my ammo, then I can't afford the sport.

I own two Open Top .38's which I enjoy playing with, but until I started putting BP through them, I found them a bore. My wife shoots .38's in her pistols and carbine and I keep one reloading machine set up for that purpose.

I just got home from a weekly indoor IPSC practice where I was the sole .45 ACP user, the others using 9mm's and .40's. I have no quarrel with them and enjoy watching them wing 'no-shoots' as they blitz stages a few seconds faster than I do with my .45.

But, I regard any hit not an 'A' as a miss and you can't miss fast enough to win in any shooting sport.

[Red Cent]

SPQ, where are you located?

I was fortunate to start SASS with some really fast and gamey shooters. I bought what they used. Guns, leather, and reloads. I practiced every day for about an hour doing the draw AND the reholster. Transitions. Dummy shells for the '97. Dry fired the 73s and the Ruger 3 screws relentlesly. As a past competitor of handgun disciplines, you are aware of the importance of training your subconscious to take over when the buzzer goes off.

SASS is a fantasy, a game to be played as you see fit staying in between the white lines.

I shoot 105s at 795fps. I shoot the '97 with 12grs of American Select shoving a 1 ounce load of shot.

I have tricked out leather from Bob Mernickle and Rod Kibler. Now I am making my own holsters. This spring some will shake their heads. PJ certainly would .

I know of two cowboys on the east coast that can compete with the 45 Colt. Marshall Harlan Wolf and Red River Ray. These are ones I used to run with. They are awesome. Wolf shoots 180s and RRR shoots 165s. RRR has won the SouthEast Regional with 45 Colts and wearing full chaps, vest, spurs, cuffs, and other stuff. The man is a competitor.

Find the fastest guy around and take him shooting. The bar will be raised and you will have to improve.

[PJ Hardtack]

No worries, mate!

There's enough categories to go 'round and we all get to shoot what we want how we want. I admire the skill of the Cowboy race gunners, but I shoot CAS with the same martial arts mind set that I shoot IPSC, where race gunners rule.

For the last few years, I haven't shot a cartridge handgun in a major match, preferring to shoot cap & ball 'Frontiersman' along with two other club members. We're having a ball in our private little war and have inspired a few to join us. We even have a cap & ball only match that is attracting more shooters.

SPQ, where are you located?
I have tricked out leather from Bob Mernickle and Rod Kibler. Now I am making my own holsters. This spring some will shake their heads. PJ certainly would .

[SPQR476]

I shoot 3 gun and all modern stuff with an eye on practicality, because its my business to stay real-world and effective with those arms, so I don't do any of the gamey stuff.  I shoot all guns that I would, and do, carry. I shoot all full power loads, and most of my rifles don't even have comps.  I'm surrounded by anodized aluminum and polymer every day.  That's my martial art.

Cowboy is an escape from that for me.  The .45s serve dual purpose, as they go to the woods with me sometimes, but overall, Cowboy is fun, where I can treat it as a game, and being gamey doesn't mess with my other skill sets.  I like the leather and wood.  I like the people and comradery.  I still like to win, though.  

And Red Cent, I'm in Kolorado for a while longer, though I've spent quite a spell in the Carolinas previously. I shoot at Boulder (non-affiliated) and Pawnee, though I may hit Byers over the next few months since I can't get out on Saturdays during wrestling season.  Might try some Briggsdale, too, once wrestling wraps up.

[Red Cent]

I am also a past practitioner in IPSC (thats what it was back when). I competed in Metallicas Silhouetta. I have competed a little in 3 gun. I shot trap and skeet for quite a few years.  And I used to build my own bolt action rifles. Douglas Barrels hooked the barrel to my action. Fajen, Bishop, and Lawson supplied the walnut. Synthetics....ugh!

The 44 mags, 357s, 9MMs, Smiths, Glocks, Rugers, and a bunch of long guns (7MMs, 308s and its kids),  occupy the safes. But.......

I have never enjoyed a game as much as I do cowboy/SASS. At 72, I grew up in the cowboy big screen cowboy era. Combine the mental, physical, equipment, and ability with cowboy and, dang, it is the most fun ever had with your clothes on. I have had a good time and succes with SASS and that makes the memories more lasting.

I never got into the Dark Side. Probably never will.

PJ, I respect you guys that shoot the Holy Black. And I appreciate your response. Do you know Silver City Rebel?

[PJ Hardtack]

A lot of CAS folks came via the other shooting sports. I've always wondered about the specialists that don't get into other games and knock them - i.e. rifle and trap shooters vs handgunners.

You and I are from the same era and grew up with the TV westerns and movies being part of our lives. I'm still drawn to them and prefer the cornball type to the current guts and gore genre, like "Django" and the foul mouthed "Deadwood".

Right now my favourite series is "Hell On Wheels" as Anson Mount shoots a Remington instead of a 'wedgie' Colt. One of my CAS buddies could double for him.

As for BP, my advice is don't! It's infectious and you'll soon acquire a brace of cap & ball guns and be hoarding BP in different grades.
I was surfing between "TGTBTU" and "The Magnificent Seven" yesterday. As much as I enjoy them, they would have been so much better with white smoke billowing around.

As for "Silver City Rebel", our paths have never crossed.

I have never enjoyed a game as much as I do cowboy/SASS. At 72, I grew up in the cowboy big screen cowboy era. Combine the mental, physical, equipment, and ability with cowboy and, dang, it is the most fun ever had with your clothes on. I have had a good time and succes with SASS and that makes the memories more lasting.

I never got into the Dark Side. Probably never will.

PJ, I respect you guys that shoot the Holy Black. And I appreciate your response. Do you know Silver City Rebel?

[SPQR476]

Don't get me wrong...I've shot BP in matches, and my Sharps gets nothing but.  There's a case of Old "E" in my powder magazine.  I just would rather shoot BP for leisure and hunting and run fast with smokey-less when I'm on the clock.

And if I had a nickel for every John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, and other western I watched with my dad when I was a lad...well, it would be easier to fund the switch to .38spl.   

I also watched too many "commando" type films, so I have a weakness for German 9mm roller lockers, too.

[Johnny McCrae]

I have never enjoyed a game as much as I do cowboy/SASS. At 72, I grew up in the cowboy big screen cowboy era. Combine the mental, physical, equipment, and ability with cowboy and, dang, it is the most fun ever had with your clothes on.

My sentiments exactly except I'm 73.

I started out with .38 Special in Open Tops and an 1866 Uberti Winchester. Now I shoot .45 Schofield in SAA's and .45 Colt in my 1873 Uberti Winchester. I do switch  back and fourth between .45 and .38 every so often. Can't tell you why. Just what I feel like shooting at the time.

I just had Cataract Surgery last Thursday. We have an indoor CAS Shoot this weekend so I'll shoot my .38 Specials.

[Bull Skinner]

I'm in P J's camp. I shoot BPGF with 44/40 rifle and pistol and sometimes Open tops in 44 Russian. I have won at the State Level in that category.

That being said, yes, 38s are faster, but if you don't think you can win overall at EOT then there are State and Regional matchs that are won all the time with 44 and 45 guns. Also there are categories that require big bore guns and winning them are as satisfying as winning the small bore dominated categories.

So, if you like shooting 45s stay with it. Shooting 38s just to win would not be very satisfying to me and it sounds like it might not be to you either. 

[PJ Hardtack]

So, respectfully, we elder statesmen of the sport are 71, 72 and 73. That's a lot of years of experience and learning, and it ain't over yet.
I don't knock any man's guns or shooting sport. That plays into the hands of our enemies. I appreciate the technology that the race gunners brought along with their intense desire to win that has benefitted us all.

[Bull Skinner]

Dang PJ we think a lot a like. Hope to meet up with ya some day.

Ps. I'm just a kid of 68.

[SPQR476]

I'd like to thank everyone for The advice.  I went ahead and made the switch.  Been saving for new guns anyway, so I went ahead and have an 18" '73 and a pair of Vaqueros headed my way in .357.  Brass, bullets, primers, etc.

I won't be getting rid of any .45s...like I said, they have other uses too, and I enjoy shooting them at original power levels.  Heck, the kid wants the .45s, thinks I'm getting "gamey" for considering the .38s. But, there's a timer in this game, and I don't want any excuses for shooting too slow.

I wish CAS had a min power factor like wild bunch, but it doesn't.  And/Or, that classic cowboy included traditional and GF as well as duelist shooting styles, but it doesn't. Seems to me a better split of categories than splitting things up every 10 years of age or so.  There's some older fellas that still whoop me, so it doesn't look like those years are TOO much of a handicap.

I put time into my persona and costume, and I love the history, but at the end of the day, I want to win.  It's a personality fault, I guess. 

[Red Cent]

Nawww, it ain't a fault. The fault comes into play when winning is everything. With blinders on. No, it is a personality trait but not a fault.

SASS shooters of yesteryear used to say that if you shoot SASS to win then it ain't the game for you.

One of the first SASS matches I observed, I ran into this. I was aking questions after the match and the MD told me that if I came up there to win, don't come back. I have shot there for the past 12-14 years. He came to realize that you cannot subdue the competitiveness in some of us and I realized that I had to not put my Winchester so far back on the table .

And, like you said, there is that dang timer!!

[PJ Hardtack]

I acted as possee RO at a major event last summer and when I asked a guy to put his rifle a little further ahead on the table, he got indignant, quoted me the rule and looked straight down at his rifle and adjusted it a millimeter just to prove the point.

I laughed at him and told him to do whatever he felt he had to do. Winning was his be all and end all.

The better men and women (and even better shooters) didn't fuss over placement and could whoop your ass if their guns were placed in the most stupid, awkward positions imaginable. Just like the guys that will fudge over starting positions as if they were in an Olympic event.

It ain't Cowboy and it ain't in the spirit of the game. It just reveals character - or the lack of it.

Nawww, it ain't a fault. The fault comes into play when winning is everything. With blinders on. No, it is a personality trait but not a fault.
SASS shooters of yesteryear used to say that if you shoot SASS to win then it ain't the game for you.
I realized that I had to not put my Winchester so far back on the table .