Centre fire breech block - bad news

[Perry Owens]

Having decided to convert my minty-bore 1867 carbiine to centre fire I got in touch with Buffalo Arms, only to be informed that they can no longer ship breech blocks outside the USA as they are classed as gun parts. To ship one now they would need to get an export license, which would add at least $300 to the $189 sale price.

[ndnchf]

Dang - that stinks.  How about S&S?  Both blocks work equally well from what I hear.  I've got the S&S block it works fine in my 1865 rifle.

[Perry Owens]

I have an inquiry into S&S but no reply as yet. I somehow doubt that they will want to go against federal regulations though.

[Herbert]

Due to the red tape and cost of it importing small amounts of parts from the US you need to find a dealer that is bringing in at least $10000 worth of guns and parts to bring cost down to a reasnoble leavel(all these parts and firearms can be put on the one export permit)this is only practical for larger dealers and most have decided it is not worth the trouble ,at least here in Australia so buying anything from the US has slowed conciderbly.For parts such as a Spencer center-fire block it is cheaper to get them made locally by a machainest,with programable CNC machines more common, this can be much less costly way to go

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

This might be a niche for 3-D printing.

[Blair]

I personally can't account for how other countries accept parts as though they are complete firearms.
Here in the US, the center fire Spencer upper breach block is a parts assembly along with a spare C&B Cylinder or the other cylinder revolver conversions to modern center fire ammo.
Importation of parts such as these maybe a very different thing for other Countries. This is something anyone living in other Nations needs to check out for themselves.
Sorry, I can't add more to this conversation.
Blair

[Arizona Trooper]

I suspect that you can lay this one at the feet of the UN and their Trafficking In Arms treaty. The US just signed it, but the Senate will never ratify. Still it's causing a lot of problems.

[Arizona Trooper]

I suspect that you can lay this one at the feet of the UN and their Trafficking In Arms treaty. The US just signed it, but the Senate will never ratify. Still it's causing a lot of problems.

[Perry Owens]

Importing into the UK is not the problem. As a part for an antique arm all I have to do is pay the import duty and tax. The problem is that the US ITAR regulations prohibit export of many firearms parts and accessories without a permit. I can't even get anyone to send me a barrel liner for my vintage Winchester 1873.
I have an S&S block in one of my other Spencers and I have a hobby machine shop so I will have to try and reverse engineer a block. Should be an interesting project.

[Snakeeater]

Perry,

Have you tried any of the UK importers, like Peter Dyson & Son Ltd? If worse comes to worse, Dyson might even be able to fabricate a CF upper block for you? If by chance you can find a spare RF block or supply him with yours, he may be able to copy it and incorporate the 1873 Belgian modification to CF? It is the one illustrated (#3) below:



If these other folks think living in Surrey is problematic, try living in Glasgow or worse at Dunblane and own any guns! I recall one of the tabloids, maybe The Sun, published an scathing article on the MP for Hamilton who was pictured holding his a Martini-Henry shotgun much in the same pose as Lee Harvey Oswald with his Carcano. Public pressure from the anti-gun constituency forced him to resign his post! BTW Perry, is your television license up to date?

[Herbert]

I suspect that you can lay this one at the feet of the UN and their Trafficking In Arms treaty. The US just signed it, but the Senate will never ratify. Still it's causing a lot of problems.

Yes this is a UN thing but the US is enforcing it more than any other country that I know of, signed by the senate or not and most countrys do not charge high fees for export permits though the red tape is still there.Not knoking the US dealers they have to follow the law or they are in serious trouble,just can not understand why the US is trying to stop there own country from making export money,things that can not be souced from the US will now be made in other countrys and once a trading relationship is established that is reliable people will stay with these supliers

[Snakeeater]

Herbert,

It's not just ITAR, it's this whole administration. Federal firearm licenses thru BATF now require licensees to submit certification of U.S. citizenship (or permanent resident alien status) as a condition for license renewal in compliance with 18 USC 922(G)(5)(B). Even state professional licensees (i.e. professional engineers, chartered architects, registered nurses, etc) are now required to provide certification of U.S. citizenship as a condition of state license renewals because of the federal law. Section 922(g)(5)(B) makes it unlawful for aliens who have been "admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)) "to ship, transport, possess, or receive any firearms or ammunition." A nonimmigrant alien is an alien in the United States in a nonimmigrant classification, and includes in large part, persons traveling temporarily in the United States for business or pleasure, persons studying in the United States who maintain a residence abroad, and certain foreign workers. The definition does NOT include permanent resident aliens. Also a federal firearms dealer's licence is now required to engrave, customize, refinish, or repair a firearm commercially.

Perry, I think you will find your answer at the link below, if it will connect for you:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

[freek]

if you know someone in the us. cant they just buy it and ship it to you.

[Snakeeater]

Unfortunately, it still must pass through customs and be declared otherwise its contraband. Like when I lived in the UK, my parents could ship a package to me at my flat, it went through British customs and was subject to confiscation if it was ruled contraband or I had to pay duty to import it. If the same parcels were shipped to the university, it seemed like British customs could have cared less what it contained. Trying to reverse the process, like when I was moving flat back across the pond, I had to go to an exporter just to ship back the possessions I couldn't carry aboard my return flight because of the excess weight. Air France still charged me twice the airfare for the weight of my two duffle bags (which weighed 99 kilos) because the flight was classified as a "domestic" flight owing to the first leg going to Paris, then to America, the maximum weight for carry-on was just 15 kilos.

After being stateside a month, I learned that the tea boxes I had "shipped" over from Scotland (limited to 35 kilos each) had not yet left the UK, why, because U.S. customs wanted me to provide receipts on all of the items which I had purchased in this country and had taken over to the UK with me, and was then attempting to re-import. You see, certain U.S. made goods are made strictly for foreign consumption and are substandard to U.S. domestic consumption, and so cannot be re-imported to the United States. So I was forced to pay duty on some of the items even though those items were ones I had purchased in the U.S. twenty years earlier!

[djossi@yahoo.com]

At this point, the Federal government hasn't implemented any of the provisions of the UN Arms Trade Treaty as it has not been ratified by the Senate, a vote which requires a two-thirds majority to pass.  Given that over half the Senators have openly declared their opposition, it would take a miracle for it to pass (as Arizona Trooper has already pointed out).  

Even if such a miracle did occur, that's only the first, and easiest, step in the process. For the US to be in full compliance with the Treaty, there's no question that a number of Federal laws and regulations would need to modified to one extent or another.  The fact that it's a two-step process reduces the odds of success even further

First, the necessary changes would need to be made to those US laws (such as Title 18, US Code, Chapter 44 - Firearms) affected by the treaty.  Once that was accomplished, the regulations put in place by those agencies responsible for enforcing the original version of the law (such as 27 Code of Federal Regulation, Part 478: Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition under the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives) would have to be modified to reflect the changes in the underlying law.

That's what would need to happen for the terms of the UN Arms Trade Treaty to become the law of the land in this country. Keeping that in mind, here are the Object and Purpose of the Treaty taken from Section 1:

- Establish the highest possible common international standards for regulating or improving the regulation of the international trade in conventional arms;
- Prevent and eradicate the illicit trade in conventional arms and prevent their diversion;

for the purpose of:

- Contributing to international and regional peace, security and stability;
- Reducing human suffering;
- Promoting cooperation, transparency and responsible action by States Parties in the international trade in conventional arms, thereby building confidence among States Parties.

Per Section 2, the Treaty covers:

Battle tanks, Armoured combat vehicles; Large-calibre artillery systems; Combat aircraft; Attack helicopters; Warships; Missiles and missile launchers; and Small arms and light weapons.

(http://www.un.org/disarmament/ATT/docs/ATT_text_(As_adopted_by_the_GA)-E.pdf)


I think this is the type of situation for which the term "when Hell freezes over" was coined.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I think there should be a distinction between "small arms" of a military nature, and "sporting arms" being just about everything else.  Then there is a sensible allowance to be made for antiques.  Whether this can fly internationally is another matter. I will leave it to the USA to discuss their own internal affairs.

[Snakeeater]

I think there should be a distinction between "small arms" of a military nature, and "sporting arms" being just about everything else.  Then there is a sensible allowance to be made for antiques.  Whether this can fly internationally is another matter.

That's just it. Just because a Spencer Repeating rifle or carbine was made before 1898 does not alone make it an "antique". Under U.S. law, a Spencer Repeating rifle (or carbine), technically, is not an antique, but falls into the purview of ATF because the definition of an "antique firearm" specifically excludes it (see B(i) and B(ii)):

As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term "antique firearm" means —

A.   any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
B.   any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
i.   is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
ii.   uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
C.   any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term 'antique firearm' shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

If you can buy .56-.50 ammunition by Ten-X or some other maker at your local gun store, gun show, or on-line then it is available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade, and therefore is classified as a "modern firearm" not an antique even though it can be 150 years old.

A similar definition is also to be found in 26 U.S.C. Subtitle E - Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain other Excise Taxes, Chapter 53 governing machine guns, destructive devices, and certain other firearms, Subchapter B, Part I, §5845 - Definitions:

(g) Antique firearm
The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

[djossi@yahoo.com]

Given that you have far more experience with Spencers than I do, Snakeeater, I hesitate to offer an opposing view. I do so only because I discussed the definition of antique firearms with my gunsmith (and FFL dealer) at length before I purchased my first antique rifle, a Winchester 1873.

The first definition that you quote is from Title 18, Chapter 44 of the US Code (USC). The US Code "is a compilation and codification of the general and permanent federal laws of the United States."  Title 18 covers federal crimes and criminal procedure. Chapter 44, in turn, addresses all firearms related federal crimes such as the penalty for shipping a firearm covered under the statute without going through FFL dealers.

Title 18, Chapter 44 stems from the Firearm Act of 1968 and the subsequent amendments to it. By way of explanation, an "act" is the bill that Congress passes. The language of the act is then incorporated into the appropriate title and chapter of the US Code and thus becomes federal law.

Chapter 44 includes a section, 921, that defines the meaning of the term "firearm". In addition, it contains the provision you quote that exempts firearms "manufactured in or before 1898" from the legal restrictions it imposes.

The key point is that the subsections you underlined refer to replica firearms only, not originals. Hopefully, the following quote will make that clear:

(16) The term "antique firearm" means—
   (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
   (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
         (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
         (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or ...

Here's a link to the same definition as it appears in an ATF pamphlet that makes the distinction between original and replica firearms even better: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-antique-firearm.html

The reason that firearms manufactured on or before 1898 are exempt from so many federal laws is that they were made from metals that can't withstand the pressures generated by modern ammunition. Thus, the firepower that they provide is significantly less than that of a more modern weapon such as an assault rifle.

On the other hand, replicas of antique firearms are, for the most part, capable of handling more powerful ammunition. As a result, they are not considered to be antique firearms and are subject to all of the legal restrictions and requirements that apply to modern firearms.

The second definition that you quote is from US Code, Title 26 (Internal Revenue Code), Subtitle E (Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes), Chapter 53 (Machineguns, Destructive Devices, and Certain Other Firearms), Subchapter B (General Provisions and Exemptions).

This particular set of statutes originated with the National Firearms Act of 1934 which was passed in the hope that it would reduce the use of machine guns, sawed-off shotguns, concealed weapons, etc. "in crime, especially in gangland crime of the Prohibition era, such as the St. Valentine's Day Massacre of 1929."

As you pointed out, the exclusion for antique firearms under this statute, being more restrictive than the one found in Title 18, does not include Spencers. However, the definition of what is and what isn't considered to be an NFA firearm is also much tighter than in Title 18 because this law is aimed at specific types of firearms.

In order to be considered an NFA firearm, a weapon has to meet one or more of the following criteria:

(a) Firearm
   The term "firearm" means
   (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
   (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
   (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
   (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
   (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
   (6) a machinegun;
   (7) any silencer (as defined in Section 921 of Title18, United States Code); and
   (8 a destructive device. The term "firearm" shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

Under the original Act, NFA weapons were machine guns, short-barreled rifles (SBR), short-barreled shotguns (SBS), any other weapons (AOW or concealable weapons other than pistol or revolver) and silencers for any type of firearm NFA or non-NFA. Minimum barrel length was soon amended to 16 inches for rimfire rifles and by 1960 had been amended to 16 inches for centerfire rifles as well.

It makes sense that Spencers weren't excluded under the antique firearms provision of this particular statute. If you sawed off the barrel of a Spencer and modified the stock, you would have a firearm that would be fairly easily to conceal and one that would give you seven shots.

Obviously, there are far better alternatives, but the Spencer would still pose a threat (even if a rather slow and clumsy one). Which is exactly what the law is aimed at preventing.

The bottom line of all this (no, I didn't forget the point I'm trying to make) is that an original Spencer would only fall under this statute if the barrel is shortened to 16 inches or less.

To sum all of this up:

• Any firearm manufactured prior to 1899 is considered to be an antique under the Gun Control Act (Title 18, Chapter 44 of the US Code) and is therefore exempt from the restrictions and requirements imposed by that law.
  


• The National Firearms Act (Title 26, Internal Revenue Code, of the US Code), on the other hand, does not exempt firearms manufactured prior to 1899 if ammunition for the firearm is easily available. However, the Act is only concerned with certain types of weapons, such as machine guns and shotguns or rifles with short barrels (16 inches or less) that can be carried concealed. Thus, as long as a rifle was manufactured prior to 1899 and has a barrel greater than 16 inches in length, it is exempt from the restrictions and requirements of this law.

In an effort to provide further documentation regarding the comments I have made, here's a link to an excellent lis of FAQs regarding ATF's definition of antique firearms:

http://www.rawles.to/Pre-1899_FAQ.html

This site includes a two page letter from the ATF to James Rawles, the author of the website, that further clarifies the definition of antique guns under federal law. It's definitely worth reading and includes the following statement that, to me, provides a much clearer and simpler definition than the one contained in the Gun Control Act:

The Bureau has previously determined that any firearm that was actually manufactured before 1899 would be an "antique firearm" as that term is defined and would not be subject to the controls of the Gun Control Act (GCA) -- [Note: The Gun Control Act is the basis for Title 18, Chapter 44 as discussed above.] The fact that the firearm has been re-barreled, re-chambered, re-blued, or sporterized would have no bearing on this classification.

The FAQs also include the following:

Q:  What constitutes "antique" under U.S. law?

A: Although your State and local laws may vary, any firearm with a frame or receiver that actually made before Jan. 1, 1899 is legally "antique" and not considered a "firearm" under Federal law. This refers to the actual date of manufacture of the receiver/frame, not just model year or patent date marked. (For example, only ***low serial number*** Winchester Model 1894 lever actions are actually antique.)  No FFL is required to buy or sell antiques across state lines. They are in the same legal category as a muzzle loading replica. I regularly ship them right to people's doorstep via UPS, with no "paper trail." Think of it as the last bastion of gun ownership and transfer privacy.

Q:  I saw a post that said that pre-1899s are considered modern "firearms" if they are chambered to fire ammunition that is available off-the-shelf. Is this correct?

That is absolutely incorrect.  ANY gun manufactured before Jan. 1, 1899 (other than a machinegun or other NFA category, such as a short barreled gun) is NOT controlled in any way by Federal law.  There is NO Federal requirement for sales of these guns to be handled by Federally licensed dealers. They may be freely bought and sold across State lines by private parties, regardless of what cartridge they are chambered in. (However, State or local laws vary.)

I found it very interesting that you can put a new barrel on your Spencer and still not lose the antique firearm designation. That's possible because the ATF considers the receiver to be the defining part of a rifle. In their view, as I understand it, changing the barrel doesn't alter the the fact that the receiver, manufactured with the softer metals of the 1800s, still limits the rifle's firepower.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Dave J;  Thanks for that detailed explanation.

How can we help Perry get his cf breech block?

[Blair]

Sir Charles,

I'm not sure there is an easy way to do this.
Much is left up to the interpretation of the individual agent and/or Agencies involved as to how the law should be read.
One thing I have found out is that importation of parts and pieces can be very much more expensive than the suggested retail at the point of origin. (adding as much a 1/3 more to the overall cost)

Perhaps, Perry, the original poster needs to find out what maybe required on his end to have such a part as this imported. Also what the Import Taxes maybe on a part costing roughly about $200.00, or more what with postage and insurance.

It maybe cheaper to have one made locally based of off the diagrams shown on this forum.
Just a thought ?
Blair