Cabela's Sale, buy or no

[BobbyF]

Hi Pards,
     Cabelas has two BP guns on sale: 1-- Pietta 1858 New Army, .44 cal, Brass frame, $ 199
                                                             2-- Pietta  1851 Confederate Navy, .44 cal, Brass frame, spare cylinder, $169
     I have no experience with BP, yet. I just got hooked on CAS. I think I would like BP a lot. Would either of these guns be an economical way for me to get involved. I know you get what you pay for. I am concerned with the brass frames. I have a '51 R/M  conversion that I shoot now which I love. I value this Boards opinions. Thank you -- BobbyF

[Dick Dastardly]

Get the 58.  You won't miss the few extra bux later and you will enjoy the steel frame.  Then, start looking for another one.  Leather is next.  Don't skimp there.  Look around at your local club.  You may have a leather worker there.

Welcome aboard.  You're in good company for a good ride.

DD-MDA

[Crow Choker]

Bobby F: I had to go back and read your post a 2nd time from what DD posted, but if I read yours right both of the guns have brass frames. I've never had a brasser', but from all I've read of them, if shot to any large extent, the brass frame models tend to 'stretch' and get out of tolerance's with extensive shooting. A shooting friend of mine back in the 70's bought his first cap an ball in a brass frame and had problems. If it was me, I'd check the prices of a steel frame model and pay the extra cost. Utilize the 'Search' function on this forum to read what has been already posted about brass frame models, there has been posts regarding them in the past. Buying one of the ones you posted on from Cabela's would be an economical way of getting into percussion shooting, but 'let the buyer beware'.  Just my 2.5 cents. 

[Cliff Fendley]

Absolutely NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on either of those. Neither is an accurate reproduction of an original, advertizing lies.

They run these sales all the time and if you keep your eyes open you can get the steel frame Remington on sale for that price. Actually last year I bought two on sale for 179 each. The recent sale on BP revolvers was the 1860 Army on sale for 199 with the starter kit which was a heck of a good deal.

Stay far away from those two you mentioned. Not only are those not good choices those prices arent special either, they are offered for that price all the time.

[Coffinmaker]

I would, at this time like to hop up on my soapbox and pontificate.  For what we do, there is nothing wrong with a brass frame gun, as long as we are talking about a nice pleasant CAS load.  Not Warthog guns, don't shoot them with Warthog loads.  20Gr +/- of your favorite BP or Sub with a round ball (.44 Cal) and brass frames will last just fine.
For the simplest start to smoky loose ammunition, I'd have to recommend APP.  Real simple to learn.  Makes it's own lube.
Nothing says your guns have to be accurate reproductions of anything.  Case in point.  The Ruger old Army.  I's the gun that really started the Frontiersman category.  It's a copy of a Ruger.
The .44 Cal Navy guns from Pieta look fine from the freeway.  Neat guns and some of us have a bunch of them.  The .44 Navy never existed in our past.  As represented by Pietta, it's an 1860 frame and cylinder with a Navy style grip and an octagonal barrel..  Looks pretty cool.  A spare cylinder runs about 50 bucks so the '51 Navy you cite is selling for about 115 bucks.  If your inot wrapped around the historically correct axel and don't plan to be a Warthog, not a bad buy.
Pontificate mode off, stepped down from soapbox, folded up my snake oil display.

Coffinmaker

PS:  I don't shoot Remington's.  I don't like Remington.  I've worked on a bunch.  Same as above.

[The Trinity Kid]

I don't have a brass frame, But I do have a steel Remington and Navy, both by Pietta.  Both are great, (Remington has a small problem with internal stuff, but that was my doing.) and stand up well to the load I shoot.  30gr of, dare I say it, Pyrodex in the Remmie, and 20 in the Colt.  (Minor note: I will NOT be buying pyrodex again in the future except to fuel my pyro-maniac desires. i.e. blowing the snot out of random objects).

That being said, I got my Remington for $169+shipping, and the Colt for $219.
I've got the Cabelas bp page up in the back right now, and Like Cliff said, the 1860 Army is going for $199.  I also see the Griswold and Spiller&Burr for the same price.  Both of the later are brass, but are historically correct, I think.  Then again, if you aren't worried about historical accuracy....

I suppose it all boils down to, what do YOU want?  If you don't intend to shoot the equivalent of a belted-magnum, then it don't really matter.

That was confusing, wasn't it?

--TK

[Slowhand Bob]

I have several Pietta non-historically accurate guns that I really like but no brass frames.  Most people seem to prefer the Colts Navy grip frame over all others.  HMMM, might be why the 51 Colt Navy and the '73 Colt SAA became THE legends of the old west!  I like the Pietta Remingtons BUT I hate their grips.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

My experience mirrors Coffinmaker's.  Started shooting C&B in the 70's and have had mostly brass with no problems. For starting out, the $169 model with an extra cylinder is a good deal.  Just my $0.02 worth.

[Lefty Dude]

For CAS/SASS competition in the frontiersman class the preference is the Colt C&B or Ruger. The Remington Hammers are higher set and unless you have long thumbs, are quite a stretch. My 51's & 60's will function well for six stages, 30 rounds. The Cylinders are never removed for fouling clean or lube. At loading I wipe the face of the cylinder with a damp cloth.
Ruger & Remington shooters seem to pull the cylinders each and every loading, also clean & lube the base pin. I use a loading fixture and load the chamber/cylinder installed on the piece.
For several years I have used Pietta 51 Brassers. They will hold up well if you do not load them with an 1860 load, 30 grains. Keep the load at 20 grains, they will last a lifetime.
My 51's are now back-ups to my 60's. Gotta love the 60's, they are the best.
Brass 51's are great starters for this sport.

[Crow Choker]

     The choice of shooting 'irons' and needed assessors always falls to personal choices and to the pocket book. What's wanted, needed, and the affordability. I always research any prospective buys to the n'th degree. I can recall numerous buys over the years where I didn't foresee where I should have bought item B instead of item A and ended up spending the extra $$ and still had the unneeded or unacceptable item. I won't look down on any one who buys for whatever reason, if their happy with it, fine with me. The Pietta 1851 Colt Navy in 44 caliber is a gun as many say "the gun that never was", is a fine shooter. My first was a Euroarms. It was accidently destroyed in a fire, missed it so much, bought a Pietta model several years ago. There is some writings that claim Sam Colt DID produce a few factory versions before they introduced the 1860 Army. Many in CAS shoot the fine Ruger Old Army, as Coffinmaker posted, "It's a copy of a Ruger". Never existed in the 1800's. A good shooter, never have had one, have shot em, wouldn't feel less shootin one beside someone shootin a 'period correct' gun.
     I agree to most of what Coffinmaker posted with a few exceptions. If I were to buy a 44 cal gun, I wouldn't see the reason to load anything less than the normally recommended average load of 25-28 grains of powder. Anything less, ya might as well just get a 36 caliber and save on lead and powder. The 25-28 is no Warthog load, it has a little punch, but is pleasant to shoot. If ya want to load more, you might as well get a Dragoon or Walker. You can't get much more than 30 grains in a 44 caliber 1860 Army size cylinder anyway. Coffinmaker, not tryin to overshadow all your fine knowledge and experience you have and share with us on this forum. Enjoy all ya post!
    I don't know, I just checked Cabela's website before typin this. They list the steel frame '58 Remington for $230, only $30 more than the brass frame model. Seems worth it to me for a stronger frame. They list the 1860 Colt for $200, only $20 more than the 51' Colt brass frame model. Stronger frame, different model. Granted they toss in a spare cylinder, but from my experience, I can reload five- six chambers of the cylinder while it's still on the gun than break down the Colt changing cylinders. Besides, I feel the more ya break down a open top type gun, such as the Colt, the more it will loosen up over time. You still have to cap the cylinder after ya reassemble the gun with the previously loaded cylinder. What moron carries around a loaded, capped cylinder? The top strap Remington model is a different beast. I have a Pietta Remington with two extra cylinders, can Clint Eastwood/Preacher that hogleg, just have to cap em after installing. If a 36 caliber model '51 Navy is wanted, Cabela's has a steel frame Pietta for $220. A person can send lead downrange using 15-20 grains of powder and use less lead whether their buying or castin it.
    In regards to Cabela's advertising, I marvel at how they describe the various cap and ball guns they sell. Claims of certain persons carrying certain guns. The 1851 Navy 44 caliber is listed as produced by Sam Colt after the success of the 36 caliber model. All kinds of liberties taken there. I've visited a Cabela's within several hrs drive and listened to some of their sales persons when 'hawking' Cabela's percussion guns spew all kinds of non-historical claims and not so-true things about shooting a cap and ball. I've overheard them while trying to sell them to other customers and to me. Guess they've been given some 'crash' course in percussion guns by the same guy who writes the descriptions on their web-site. In regards to Cabela's percussion gun 'Starter Kits", what you get is a polycarbonate (a/k/a plastic) powder flask, a cheaply made capper, a so-so powder measure, an adequate nipple wrench, and 30 rounds of balls and wads for $70, reg price $75. They toss in the starter kit with some of the '51 and '60 Colts and with the '58 Remington at a little less than the kit price, but the quality of the kit itself is in my estimation very low. I priced what they've contained in their kit with separate items they sell. For a Colt type Pedersoli flask and better style powder measure, a Ted Cash straight line capper, and a basic nipple wrench, the price hits around $70, but ya get better quality items you might end up buying down the road. If you live close enough to a Cabela's and are interested in buying one of their cap and ballers, go to the store and ask the sales person to examine more than the gun they show you. If they want to sell one, they'll comply. Pick through them and get the one you feel has the best action, fit, and feel. Not everyone they have in stock is equal. I bought a Walker from them a little over a year ago and had all seven they had in stock laying on the counter and picked the one I thought was best. I'll take the heat for being 'picky'!
   This post was started reference brass vs. steel frame revolvers. Brass will get you by, you may or may not experience problems down the road with a brasser, from mostly what I've read, most have, steel framers are better and with Cabela's prices, they arenot that much more for a stronger frame. Well this is my version of what became a lengthy post rivaling the length of "War and Peace". Didn't intend to type so much, but here it is, just don't call me 'Windy'. Just my opinion, 2 cents, and freedom of speech I guess. Have a good day to all. Crow Choker          

[BobbyF]

Hi Pards
     I knew You All would not let me down. My wife is amazed at how you Pards give of your time to help me out by sharing your knowledge and opinions to little ole me. I truly value each and every post, I wish I could buy you each a beer or a cup of mud and sit down to a gab fest about the sport you all got me hooked on. I hope the day comes that I can pay back to the CAS community and help someone.
     Now to absorb all this info and make a decision. Thank You all and have a wonderful holiday season --BobbyF

[Blair]

BobbyF,

Just my opinion,
Most here learned in the same way you are. By and from people willing to share their knowledge and experiences.

My suggestion would be to wait and save your $ for steel framed revolvers. May cost more in the long term but, your investment will be better spent and serve your needs longer.
My first C&B revolver was a .36 cal. brass frame Colt Navy. I still have it and I can still shoot it. However, after more than 45 years of shooting, it is not very reliable, due to stretching.
I could correct this to some extent... but as a brass frame, it just isn't worth my time and effort. I would be able to sell cylinder today for more than the complete revolver cost me when the gun was "New".
Be good to yourselves.
My best,
Blair

[BobbyF]

Hi Pards ,
     Blair, 45 yrs- WOW. Old St Nick should be leaving me a 1860 under the tree. I won't get to shoot it for a couple weeks till I  get back to Albuquerque. I'll let you all know how I make out. Muchas gracias

[Major 2]

Bob
you've gotten some good responses, and from real quality folks...

I like to offer my 2 cents...

First Cabala's is a wise source , they have a good reputation for service & if need be, return & replacement should the gun you get have some issue , weather it timing or blemish ....

I'd ask you if you have larger hands ( The Remington or Navy might not be the best fit )

Brass or Steel... for me it's a no brainer , while it's true with normal and recommend BP powder charge the gun will be fine....
                     I'd op every time for steel.
If you desire one day to get a conversion cylinder, steel is the way to go....

Caliber , 44  (.451 -.454)  same reason conversion Cyl. uses 45 Colt and that's  .451-.454
& 36 = .375 and the the conversions are chambered .357 , there are work arounds  but that is a bit more advanced.

I personally would suggest steer clear of guns that never were , Brass 44 Navy's , Brass 58 Remington's , even the steel 51 Navy in 44 Cal... again that's me ...

Looking at the Cabala's page , I see the 1860 Army 44 , perfect for larger hands , you could, down the road get a Conversion Cylinder
and shoot 45 Colt or Schofield rounds.

If Brass still appeals, the Spiller & Burr in 36 cal. is on sale for $199 , this a Confederate Revolver that existed
The Griswold & Gunnison 36 is also on sale @ $199 also a Confederate Revolver that existed...

Don't be fooled a Brass Frame Navy in 36 or 1860 in 44 is not a Grizwold & Gunnison ( don't care what the Prop master said on "Hell on Wheels ")

And Remington never made a brass frame 58 NMA....


I recommend...

Big hands ? the Steel 1860 Army

small to Med. hands ? 58 steel Remington NMA 44 cal. , or the 36 Cal Steel Navy , and even the 1860 Army.

I too have been shooting them 40 odd years

Good luck & happy shooting ....

[Mogorilla]

I will 2nd all that the major said on the size of hands.  Also, I have a brass remington and two of the steel.  Go with steel.  Check out the 1860 for $199, that is a great price.  I have 2 of those as well.  they are my go to shooters.  If I was not saving to get the Dance Brothers revolver, I would buy a 3rd Army for that price.

[Missouri Ruffian]

You are in luck.  I just got a Christmas sales catalog from Cabela's.  Pietta steel frame Remington 5 1/2 and 8 inch both for $179.99.  Same price I paid last year for my two. Great guns.  Everyone else has given reasons why one over the other, but I also like my 1851 Colts, even if they're non-historic "brass" frame 44 cal.  Just like to have fun and they are more fun than a cartridge gun.

[Mogorilla]

I agree on the brass framed fun as well. I have a brass navy, in 44 with a 12 inch barrel (Nope, never heard of anyone named Freud!)It is a fun shooter.  Also have the 44 buffalo Remington, (yes another 12" barrel, who is this Freud guy people keep mentioning?).  It has a shoulder stock attached that also will attach to one of my 1860s.  That makes for some fun shooting.   I think the navy will get a steampunk shoulder stock soon.   Cabelas does have some great prices.

[BobbyF]

Hi Pards,

     I hope you don't find my replies to be boring, but I love this place and all the Pards in it. Major, I do have big hands to wrap around the 1860, I wasn't aware of the conversion cylinder until you mentioned it, I think that is a big plus for the '60, I will do that for sure. It  does my mind good to hear the other Pards like it as well. The only down side is that you all make me more fidgety than I already am to get it and shoot it. Thank you all again-- Fidgety Bob

[Major 2]

Glad to help (infect you  )

however, like potato chips, you can't have JUST one...  I predict by next Christmas you have more and be totally off the deep end that is BP shooting ...

enjoy the ride !

[Cliff Fendley]

If the 1860 is still on sale for 199 that is the best buy.