Got My Spencer 56-50 Ordered, Now What? Rapine Mould Information.

[Backstrap Bill]

I received the conversion kit for the RCBS 9369 case trimmer.  

The kit came in aRCBS plastic die box. It consists of a parts list for the trimmer, a collet large enough for the 56-50 rim, a 50 cal pilot, a new cutter big enough to handle anything up to about .60", and new screws to attach the collet holder to the trimmer base.

Works great!!

I have loaded annealed & trimmed cases with 35 gr. by volume of Scheutzen 2F & bullets of 4 different alloys, all lubed with SPG & sized .512".  Bullet loaded is the Rapine 350-T.  Alloys are:  Lyman No. 2, 20:1, wheel weights, and radio-isotope container (pure led + 2% antimony - softer than 20:1).

I'll be firing these over the chrono the week of January 14.  I'll post velocity & accuracy info shortly thereafter.

BTW, I found a whole case of Elephant 2F, unopened, last week by calling Maine Powder House.  That was the last of the 2F, he still has about 77 pounds of 1F.  He's out of the 3F as well.

[Backstrap Bill]

Received my new rear sight from Buffalo Arms Co.  It is the excellent Smith Enterprises buckhorn ladder sight on a base with a .450" dovetail.  Much better sight picture and ladder sight adjustments..If you haven't seen or owned one of the Smith Enterprises, you are missing a great sight.

My dovetail slot measures about 0.436".  I have a safe file for cutting dovetails.  I'll cut down the dovetail on the sight base rather than enlarge the dovetail slot in the barrel.  That way, I will be able to install the factory rear sight again should I ever get involved with the re-enactment crowd.

[Backstrap Bill]

I installed the Buffalo Arms sight.  Now, I have a real sight picture.  I was able to shoot 3-4" groups @ 100 yards on a windy day & without having worked on the trigger pull yet.

Annealing the brass solved the extraction problems.  I fired 50 rounds w/no cleaning between & every case ejected just fine.  There was very little debris in the action when I cleaned.  I was firing Scheutzen 2F using the 350-T Rapine bullet & SPG.  There was soft lube on the muzzle.

My chronographing & alloy testing was interesting.  I used the basic load described above.  I fired 10 shot strings w/o blowing, and cleaned between strings.  I had significant leading with 20:1, none with radioisotope alloy (med lead), ditto w/ wheel weights and Lyman No. 2.  the bore apparently likes a little antimony in the alloy.

The harder the alloy, the smaller the group size, with No. 2 allow posting 2.5" 100 yard group.  WW group was about 3", med lead about 3" & 20:1 came in at 5" (due to leading?).

The exact load was:  Starline annealed & trimmed brass, 35 gr. by volume of Scheutzen 2F w/enough compression to seat the bullet to the crimp groove (more than 1/4") using a MPS compression die, a 0.030 Walter's wad, the Rapine 350-T bullet sized to 0.512 & lubed w/SPG, light crimp, Federal magnum rifle primer.  Bullets weighed near 365 gr depending on alloy.

Velocities & Sdt Devs were:  No. 2 - 840fps/std dev 16 fps, 20:1 - 833 fps/12 fps, WW - 809 fps/10 fps, and med lead 815 fps/18fps.

One more thing about the Smith Enterprises combination buckhorn/ladder sight.  The gun still hits about 10" high @ 100 yards.  I will have to deepen the notch in the rear sight to get a point blank 100 yard sight picture using a bottom hold.

My next experiments will be done after I have worked on the trigger pull.  I will be using Swiss 2F & 3F with alloys of med lead, WW & No. 2.  It will probably be President's Day before I get to test again.

All in all, I think it won't be long before I have a load ready for deer hunting.  This has been a real gas, what fun!!!

[Arizona Trooper]

Your velocities seem a little low and SDs high. Was it cold when you were shooting? My 56-50 (M-1868 carbine, 20" bbl) run around 930 fps using 35 gr. of GOEX FF, mag primer and 375 grain cut down Lyman 515141 50-70 bullet. SDs were low teens at most, usually single digits for a 10 shot string. Your accuracy is great though! You'll have no problem dropping dinner with your Spencer!

I carried that carbine one year in Va. and never got a shot. I hope your luck runs better! 

[Backstrap Bill]

AZ Trooper,

Depends on your definition of cold.  It was in the 20's which ain't very cold for mid-January in these parts.

I shot my Trapdoor the same day & got SDs of 8 fps w/one load & 5 fps with another.

[Oregon Bill]

Bill: Sure appreciate your loading report. My Spencer should finally be here today or tomorrow, and I have a mold on the way from Dakota Widowmaker. Also just got a mixed case of BP, and will try some of the New Goex Express FFg. What is the LOA of your cartridges?
Bill

[Backstrap Bill]

Howdy Bill,

The loa with the Rapine 350-T bullet is 1.503"

Wait 'til you shoot that carbine with black powder!  The flame is about 6' long!!

[Backstrap Bill]

The Lock:

I finally removed the lock.  If you want to do that, be very careful, there is some thin wood around the edge of the side plate.

I coated the wood inside of the inletting with tung oil to harden the wood fibers.

There was absolutely no grease in the lock.  It was dry as a bone.  Trigger pull on my fisning scale with the lock in this condition was 18+ lbs.  Parts were smooth & well fitted other than that  little lubrication problem.  The sear engagement was just fine.  I won't monkey with mine & suggest you leave yours alone, too.

I greased the lock, reassembled & tried trigger pull again.  Cocked smoother, but pull still aobut 18 lbs.

If you don't understand the heat tempering of springs, nor understand how tool marks can cause zones of weakness causing premature spring failure, if you don't know the proper way to work down a leaf spring, read no further.  Take the gun to a gunsmith who understands sidelock actions.

The outer 1/2 of the bottom spring leaf is the trigger return, it was contributing 8 lbs to the trigger pull. I removed enough spring material to reduce the trigger return to 6 lbs.

I then workd down the top leaf, which controls the hammer fall, about 15%.  Reassembled.  Trigger pull is now a crisp 8.5 lbs, with smooth travel thanks to lubrication.  I might work down the spring some more before I do final polishing.

Stay tuned.

[Backstrap Bill]

It's been many months since I have been able to get back to the Spencer 56-50 project.  Apparently, the wait was worth it because I got a couple of things figured out.

Concerning the rear sight, I simply put the factory rear sight in the mill & cut the battle sight slot square (vertical sides, flat bottom) to 0.060" wide & about 0.100" deep.  Gave a great, clean crisp sight picture that allows me to get groups about 3" square at 50 yards, plenty good for deer hunting.  I also recut the notch on the elevator slide & the one at the top of the elevator being careful to index everything so that all the notches are on the center line.

Next, I worked up a load for cowboy shooting and what do you know, it prints dead on @ 25 yards, 6" low at 50.  I have not chronographed the load, but here is the data:  365 gr. Rapine bullet, 0.512" dia, 30:1 alloy, SPG lube, 27 gr by volume Elephant 1F (fills a standard Belding & Mull charge tube to 14.5), magnum large pistol primer, 0.030 Walter's wad, 0.035 compression, 1.503 loa, moderate crimp, annealed Starline brass.  I fired 20 rounds w/o cleaning, no leading was evident - I did this in 2 10-shot groups allowing the barrel to completely cool between strings.  Both groups were about 3" in diameter; 1st shot from a clean barrel prints about 1" higher than the others.

Like I said, I have not chronographed the load, but I can tell you that it is s-l-o-w.  my guess is around 600 fps.

Next experiment is a 3F Swiss load for deer hunting.  I am hoping to regulate the load so it prints dead on @ 50 yards.  If it does, I won't have to worry about reworking the front sight to lower the point of aim.  I'll post this load when I get the time to work it up.

I'll try to chronograph both loads sometime this fall.

Once again, stay tuned...

[Two Flints]

Hi SSS,

Back to the top as this post has losts of great loading information

Two Flints

[Backstrap Bill]

Here is the chrono data for the cowboy load I described above, as well as recipe & velocities for the hunting load.  All data was collected 15' from muzzle over a Oehler 3 screen chronograph, it has not been corrected to give muzzle velocity.  Conditions were 65 F, 30% relative humidity, wind calm.

Sight setting was using rear sight with the staff laid down, top of front sight even with top of the square notch of rear sight, not the top of the "V".

Cowboy load that prints dead on @ 25 yards, center hold.  1st shot from clean barrel, 596 fps, remaining shots averaged 572 fps.

Hunting load, with center hold, prints 4" high @ 25 yards, 5" hi @ 50 yards.  For first shots from clean bores 4.5" @ 25, 5.5" @50.
1st shot velocity 990 fps., remaining shots averaged 976 fps.  I'll use a bottom hold on the deer.

Interesting note: cowboy load windage is dead on, the hunting load is 2.5" right of center @ 25, 4.5" right @ 50.  So, you might want to readjust the rear sight if you want to use this load for hunting.

Here's the recipe for the hunting load:  28gr by volume (14.8 on Std Belding & Mull charge tube if you have one), Swiss 3F, Federal magnum large pistol primer, once-fired Starline annealed brass, neck sized, moderate roll crimp, 365 gr. Rapine bullet 20:1, sized to .512", SPG lube, 0.030 Walter's wad, 0.035" compression, no drop tube, from a Lyman 99 measure, 1.503" loa.  Group size @ 50 yards, 3" wide by 2.5 high.

I think I'm done messing around with this rifle now so don't look for any more from me until after hunting season.  I plan to try for a whitetail with this beastie.

Thanks to all the Spencer Shooting Society members for their helpful posts & emails along the way.  This has been a great project.

Email me if you have any questions.

[Backstrap Bill]

Used the Spencer at a NCOWS-like match over Labor Day weekend, up in Grizzly country int he Shoshone national forest, SW of Cody, WY.  Water froze in the buckets to nights, but the Spencer did its job - 40 shots, 40 hits.  Don't get any better than that.  Nope, no griz strayed through camp.

[Backstrap Bill]

Well, I got my buck.  He is a heavy bodied, 19" wide, 4 X 5 white tail shot down on the Yellowstone River in Montana on a ranch that gets a lot of hunting pressure.  Range was 15 yards using the black powder hunting load I posted above.  Now that I've fulfilled the Spencer dream, it is on to my next project.  I have a Cimarron 1876 Winchester on order, cartridge is 50-95, should arrive in the summer of 2007, it will use the same bullet I chose for the Spencer.

Two Flints will add a picture that I sent him, I am too dumb to figure it out myself.

Good luck hunting with your Spencers!!




Backstrap Bill

[Black River Smith]

Don't want to be too gory.  Did the deer run after the shot hit or did it just fall?  Where did your bullet hit?  Was it a heart/lung shot or elsewhere?

Just want to understand the effectiveness of the 360 gr 50cal Spencer from a hunting perspective.

[Two Flints]

Hi Backstrap,

We had an horrific wind and rain storm in Maine last night (Saturday), too many tree came down, too close to our power lines, so I had to shut my computer down early...sorry I couldn't post your Spencer Buck photo sooner.

Nice looking buck.  Now, let's see what fits here.  CAMO COWBOY, is there such an alias?  I'm not sure we have a good fit here...a Spencer and camo clothing???  Why not a cowboy outfit??? or Civil War outfit to go with that Spencer???  I see the CasCity-Spencer cap, but WHAT, no Spencer Shooting Society insignia???  For shame!

Thanks for your posts and the photo of the buck!

Two Flints

[Backstrap Bill]

It was a lung shot, just behind the shoulder.  The entrance hole through the ribs was about the size of a silver dollar, same going out the other side.  The buck ran about 40 yards.  White tail amaze me with their strength, even when they are dead on their feet.

Two Flints, I place such high value on my SSS insignia, etc, that I could not stand the thought of getting icky stuff on them while skinning.  I got a drop of blood on the cap & was depressed for about a minute.  As for the camo, I figured the camo would make me invisible so the Spencer would stand out better.

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   Well, it's a Deer Cartridge {as if there was a doubt...}!!! Great photo, too. You're going for the 1876 in .50Ex? I wish that I had the cash! I've got a Win.1876 in .45-75 that has a "shootable" bore, but it's not a "Fifty"! Did they tell you what twist they're cutting in the barrels? You've GOT to keep us posted!
   I think that we need an Official "Hunting w/ Spencer" category! Stories & Photos, guys! What say?

          Be Well!

                          M.T.M.
                        10-30-06

[Two Flints]

Rapine Info bumps this thread back to page one!

Two Flints

[Backstrap Bill]

Well howdy,

It has been a while since I've checked the SSS pages.  My Spencer has been performing flawlessly, so I haven't needed to look for solutions to problems.

The Rapine bullet continues to perform well.  I've shot the Spencer in about a dozen SASS and NCOWS matches now and have never missed a target with the Spencer.  I didn't use the Spencer hunting in 2007 - a big mistake as I had several deer well within range...

Apparently the Rapine bullet, and perhaps the carbine itself, are immune to stealth bullets.

With that in mind, I intend to try the Rapine bullet in my brand spanking new Centennial Model in 50-95 -- as soon as it comes back from the importer.  The rifle has a problem that makes the gun inoperable, that I can fix, but want the importer to see first.

So, looks like I'll be spending my time on the 1876 Winchester pages until I get this beast (28" bbl, about 12 lbs empty) running.

Backstrap

[Two Flints]

Backstrap Bill,

So, looks like I'll be spending my time on the 1876 Winchester pages until I get this beast (28" bbl, about 12 lbs empty) running.

Shame on you Bill,   SSS has missed your Spencer input and information.  An 1876 Winchester

Two Flints