newbie with new Spencer original

[KEN S]

I have a new Spencer and have started to shoot it...here's some info and more to come as load is developed.
  56-50 cal.

The Spencer is complete, I have the original breach block too.  address is mostly there, back half weak front strong 1865 date Prov mfg. . cartouche is visible too.  
low serial number.  193x.    any idea of date of mfg?  
    the bore is really sharp.  three groove 1865 type.  
    The Stabler locks up with the center fire breach in and won't close when opened.  It catches. I just lock it open anyway.  probably would be fine with the original breach, but no matter.
       load, 340 RNFP Lyman, 35 grains 1 1/2 Swiss, one card, SPG lube by hand, 515 diameter, straight from the mould. .  1.58 TCL   accurate, 3 inches at 50 yds.  but more testing to be done.  had to raise front site by adding german silver. easy to do.
       I tried adding two paper wads under bullet, but both with and without are good, so wad doesn't seem to be sticking to the bullet.  base of bullet wiped before loading anyway. That's a must!
       I want to try the 515 lube sizing die when it comes, and expand the cases to better ease the bullet in the case.
The 512 expander is just not enough.         At 512 sized, it's accurate four out of five, but always with one flyer.  
        bore is 515.   so it needs the larger size I would think.



 
                                        (Photos Posted by Two Flints)
   More to come...Ken

[ndnchf]

Welcome aboard Ken!  How about posting some pics of your Spencer?  We like pics

It sounds like you have agood starting load, I assume it feeds well from the magazine?  With a .515" groove size, best accuaracy will likely be with a .515"-.516" bullet.   

[KEN S]

OK, I went to the range with the new RNFP 350 Lyman and they don't cycle.  the fit the chamber all right, but the second round of two won't cycle.  I've ordered a new mag spring hope that helps.  any ideas?

   I've also had trouble with the Lyman 515 mould filling all the grooves.  I've been casting for decades, so I'm temp the lead at 650 and use Lyman #2 and even added some tin, so they're hard enough.  the old mould with the pointed nose cycled perfectly but I need the RNFP for safety.   any thoughs?   
  thanks..Ken

[ndnchf]

Ken - there are several good threads in the SORI folder that address cartridge length. But I'll tell you what I did for my infantry rifle.

To determine optimum length using the Lyman 515139 bullet, I started out by determining what the maximum length cartridge the action would handle with this bullet.  I started out with an OAL of 1.700".  I loaded one dummy round and tried to cycle it.  That was too long; it would not completely exit the magazine.  So I started shortening the OAL by .005" until one round would clear the magazine and cycle.  That ended up being 1.680" OAL.   So then I loaded a second dummy round to the same length and loaded them both.  The first one cycled in, but the second one's nose got caught.  So I made another pair just a tad longer and that worked well.  So I now load to 1.682" OAL.  Also adding a little grease to the bullet noses helps the breech block slip over them.  My rifle takes a longer case than the Starline, so I made mine from .50-70 brass and it works great.  You can read more about how I got mine sorted out here:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,49487.0.html

I'm not a big fan of the Lyman 515139 bullet.  I've never had great accuracy from any rifle I've used it in.  It is hard to get the grooves to fill out too.  I've found that by leaving a large puddle above the sprue plate, more weight is pressing down into the mold and helps to fill it out.  I've gone to the Rapine 350T bullet in my rifle and had excellent results with it.  I've documented shooting this rifle here:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,49533.0.html


Hope this helps.

[paledun]

Ken, from what ndnchf said about his OCL, I'm starting to wonder if there is wider range of acceptable cartridge lengths for Spencers which may have something to do with the individual weapon and bullet shape.  I started my load development with an original cartridges and found they loaded from the magazine with ease.  My cast Lyman 515139 load was developed with my attempt to replicate the original cartridge length and bullet curve with my case and Lyman bullet.  The result was an overall length of 1.514.  Longer lengths did not work well.  I also use a 50-70 case which I trim to 1.17 which allows me to crimp over the last lube ring and on the bullet curve.  I am not sure all Spencer chambers will accept the longer case but yours can be simply tested.  I also have found my casting results are much better if I increase the temperature to just below 700.  I normally cast in the winter in an unheated space and have to keep the mould heated as well but the higher lead temp allowed me to produce a fair bullet.  Keep trying as the results are well worth the effort.  Paledun or aka Sagerider

[ndnchf]

Paledun - good point about case length.  My rifle has a M1868 trapodoor barrel installed and chambered by Springfield Armory.  It has a longer than usual chamber.  But it seems to match the OA cartridge length that works in it.  Every rifle is different and needs to be chacked for what works best.   I trim my cases to 1.356".

[Herbert]

In my original Burncide Spencer the longer cases will not chamber ,however you still need a cartridge of a larger OAL about 1.60 to 1.68 will work best in original Spencers,so you will have to seat the bullet out further (I have always had feeding problem with the Lyman bullet,nose shape is not right)or even better get a new mould that is meant for the original Spencer,BACO or NEI and others can supley these moulds

[KEN S]

thanks guys, this is all great advice.  The rapine pointed bullet from the mould that I cut worked great, but pointed in not safe..so I bought  the Lyman 515 340 mould, and so far accuracy and feeding is not great.  I found using the dipper, I can cast good bullets, so I'll try those.  I've been doing a TCL of 1.59, so I'll try longer, out to 1.68 and see.   I'm waiting for the 515 lube die and expander to come, so testing is on the way. I may try to polish the feed ramp and add a little grease to the nose as a trick too.
     Thanks  and if you think of anything else, I'll check daily......love that ol' Spencer though....I'll get it to work....Ken

[ndnchf]

There are other molds out there that will likely feed better.  BACO sells both bullets and molds.  If you can't get that Lyman bullet to cooperate, don't get frustrated, try some different bullets.  These rifles can be VERY finicky about cartridge length.  Mine only has a min-max length window of about .005".  So it may take perseverance to find what works in yours.  Experiment with dummy rounds until you find the sweet spot.    

One other thing to keep in mind - the bullet length is not the only consideration in finding the right cartridge length.  The bullet's nose (ogive) shape effects it.  The cartridge stop on top of the lower breech block engages the side of the bullet nose.  So the shape of the ogive can effect where the cartridge stops.  For example, the length of the Lyman and Rapine 350 bullets are very similar.  But the different nose shapes causes the cartridge to stop at a different point.  Its kind of hard to explain, but I hope this makes sense.

[KEN S]

good advice,. thanks.. went to the range yesterday, poor groups.  crimp on shell was weak.  I read that older lyman dies didn't crimp well.  I shortened the crimp die about 1/16 and it crimps very tight now.  bought new mag spring and just put it in.  seems stronger.  Heavy trigger pull, and I'll hold tight in shoulder and forearm rest to help with hammer blow. 
   original gun and original spring.  I don't want to fool with it.  Some day I may buy a new spring and play with it. 
   
    test load.   30 weighed Swiss 1 1/2
                    1.60 with heavy crimp.
                    one card wad
                    lg pistol primers. 
                    340 hard cast, and inspected .515 sized with SPG , base wiped clean

same as above but TCL 1.56  to test compression
                   hope to get out today....results to follow.

   What do you think about mag primers?   rifle or pistol primers....
   Thanks...Ken 

[ndnchf]

I used to use magnum primers with BP, but no more.  My best spender load used Federal large rifle primers.  You might want to try a softer bullet allow.  No need for a hard bullet at these speeds. 

[Herbert]

You will also see a improvment in acuracy as you use more powder ,around  40grs will give the best acuracy you will need a compresion die for this amout of powder.I use ICI LPPs with a under primer wad for best acuracy,if doing this always keep your primmer pockets clean and make sure there is no primmer protrusion.The bullet really makes a diffrence with the 56-50 and I have found that the Lyman bullet is just too short for best acuracy in original Spencers,diameter is rarley large enough either

[KEN S]

good thoughts on primers.  I'll try the lg rifle, and softer lead.
  I'm using 30 1 1/2 weighed,  I didn't want to compress too much, but I'll try a heavier charge.

   no luck on accuracy yet.  I found that 1.51 tcl  feeds great. I'll try to up the powder charge in that  length.
I took off the bottom of the lyman die and found I get a better crimp.  The new mag spring works great. feeds smoothly.

    thanks all,  more testing.....
   it's the journey after all..   Ken

[paledun]

Ken, I really have never attempted to measure accuracy in my Spencer load as the carbine is used for SASS and distances are normally rather short.  But our cartridges are very similar.  With a 1.15 OCL, increasing your powder will require some real compression.  I discussed my load with Herbert and chose to use 39 grains of 2F Goex which requires i compress the powder by approximately 1/4 inch.  This seemed like an unreasonable amount but found it was not.  Rather than modify a die for compression, I simply use a one inch length of 1/2 inch dowel which I place in the case, over the powder and compress with the sizer die.  The case was already sized and mouth slightly belled for the bullet.  My Lyman bullet is casted from wheel weights which is then inserted and used to complete the powder compression and place the bulled to the proper depth.  A simple process but it works. 

One final comment, I intentionally do the initial compression with the dowel to a point which requires the bullet actually complete the compression process.  While I have read lots of conflicting comments regarding air space or no air space between bullet and powder, I have elected to follow the "no air space" line of thinking. 

If you do increase you powder, post the results as your cartridge is so similar to mine and a little comparison is interesting. 

Paledun aka Sagerider

[KEN S]

Ok went to the range today
   load 40 grains GOEX CTG.  and a 340 Lyman, unsized 515 hand lubed. one card wad.
  shot 3 inches at fifty yds. compression was dowel and I let the seating do the rest. heavy compression for sure.
   I tried 30  GOEX CTG, same as above and it was about the same.
   TCL was 1.51 and it loaded like a semi auto.  no sticking, smooth as silk.  so that's the ctg length.

    I crimped in the crimping groove with a tight crimp,  reliving the bottom of the seating die allowed me to get a better crimp.    The Lyman dies at least the older ones...needed to have it done. 

   next step.   weighed 35 to 37 grains.   I should mention that I weighed all charges, and wiped the base clean upon loading.
    I'm also wondering if a newspaper wad over the card would allow the card to leave the bullet quicker.
        getting there...WHAT A GUN....  smooth and reliable at 150 years.   ME?   I'm just 67 old and cranky....Ken

   

[Two Flints]

Paledun and Ken S

Terrific discussion on Spencer loads - my question . . .

I read TCL 1.51, guess this means Total Cartridge Length and then I read OCL 1.15 is this correct? Or should it be 1.51 and does OCL mean Overall Cartridge Length or am I missing something?

What happened to using OAL and just that if it means the same as TCL and OCL?

Wish posters would stop using abbreviations and just spell out the words

Two Flints

[Blair]

Two flints.

Great posting!
Clarification is very much needed.
My best,
Blair

[ndnchf]

I was a little confused by TCL too, but assumed it was Total Cartridge Length.  I thought OAL was pretty well understood by most folks. Maybe I'm mistaken.

[paledun]

Now is see the confusion, 1.15 should be 1.51.  My old, stiff fingers are unable to keep up with the thoughts.  And reviewing was abandoned with retirement some time ago.  Again, my apologies.  Paledun aka Sagerider

[KEN S]

sorry guys.  TCS is total Cartridge length.   end of case to tip of lead bullet. 
    different from case length, which is the brass casing only.

   The total cartridge length of the Spencer is critical.  I've been restoring and working on antique gun actions for thirty, ok make that 40 years.  so while I'm new to the spencer action, Black Powder loading is in my blood.
    TCL effects the spencer because of the action. so does the follower spring. the one that pushes the bullets.  Like a .45 acp pistol, the mag spring just about runs the gun...so too the spencer.  I replace it for $12 and the gun runs like a racecar.
    I crimp heavily in the crimping groove of the Lyman 340 RNFP bullet.  I cast slowly so all the groves are filled.
      a card wad protects the base of the bullet, but if some lube is stuck on the base, It can travel all the way down range. 
   SOMETIMES.   which will give bad accuracy.   by putting in the card first then TWO plain newspaper or wax paper wads, they fall off easily at the muzzle and take the had wad with them.  no more wad hitchhiking problems.  My 50 90 Sharps had this problem and groups went to 1 inch at 100 yds when I used two paper wads.
   
       I'm trying GOEX Cartridge instead of Swiss 1 1/2. and it looks good so far. 
   Hold the gun tight to your shoulder.  the heavy hammer blow can move that muzzle a hair, which means two feet off at fifty yards.
   more to come.....Ken