Loading for a very unusual Remington Rolling block - .58 Roberts!

[Oregon Bill]

Ndnchf: I for one am terrifically impressed with your Roberts. I did not know it even existed until this thread. If you can tell me the base and rim dimensions, I can tell you if CBC/Magtech 24-gauge brass can be made to work. This brass is widely used as a basis for .577-450 and .577 Snider, and at about $1 per case, it is relatively affordable.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Here is a cut'npaste from the table I linked above;


58 Roberts       B    0.612    1.37    0.741    0.610    -    0.656    1.90    -    1870

[ndnchf]

Sir Charles - thanks for posting those specs.  I've been doing a lot of research and actually found 3 different sets of .58 Roberts specs, all vary slightly.

Bill - my rifle's chamber is:
Rim - .775"
Head - .660"
Neck - .635"
length - 1.400"

The RMC cases I have are 1.330" long and we're made from a chamber cast, so they fit real well.  I've got about 35 good RMC cases.  It seems to have pretty generous headspace and I'm a bit concerned about using the thin skinned 24 gauge shells in it.  I know a lot of Snider shooters use them.  If I didn't have these cases, I would probably try them.  But for now I'll stick with these, as they were made for the chamber.  I have ordered a 19/32 reamer to open up the case mouths, which should work better than the drill bit.  I've come up with a way to neck size the cases, prime and deprime.  So I think I can avoid spending several hundred dollars on loading dies.  At least for the time being.

I've got 6 cases loaded with 55gr of Old Eynsford and the .590", 480gr minie', and am leaving work in a couple hours and heading for the range.  Also bringing along my Uberti 1876 in .50-95.  It's a day for big bore fun!

[dusty texian]

ndnchf, that is a very Cool project.It is great to see you bring that old war horse back to life.  Them dang holes are so big I can see down range through em. My Gawd. ,,,,,Dusty

[ndnchf]

Thanks Dusty, it is a lot of fun.  I went out today and shot my loads with 55gr of 2F Old Eynsford at 50 yards.  The results were disappointing.  Windage was good, but a large vertical spread.  The holes are nice and round, so they are not key holeing.  I really think the problem is twofold.  1. -  a badly worn front sight, the blade is essentially worn off and only a nub of sorts remains.  So it is really hard to get a good sight picture.  I'll have to think about what can be done with it.  2. - The trigger pull is extremely heavy.  Its the worst of any rifle I've fired in over 40 years of shooting.  Its got to be at least 15 - 20 lbs.  I may get another hammer and trigger spring, lighten them and swap them out.    

I think the trigger pull is contributing to the vertical stringing.  I'm pulling so hard on it, that the muzzle is bobbing up and down.  Lots of excuses I know, but it is fun trying.  Here is the ugly truth.

[dusty texian]

I would bet that 15-20 lb. trigger pull,has a whole lot to do with the vertical stringing. Wonder what is the norm for accuracy with this old warhorse? A big bore ,a nubbin of a sight and a trigger pull like that ,well  look's like it's doin purty good,Amigo.,,,Dusty

[Oregon Bill]

Ndnchf: I just put my calipers on a CBC/Magtech 24-gauge case, and I get a rim diameter of .720, rim thickness of .051 and a head diametervof .661. The cases come at 2.5 inches long, so plenty to play with there. The only examples I have left are already sized down to .577-450 for the Martini, or I would send you a couple to mess with. I just sent off two boxes along with a Snider I sold.

[ndnchf]

Bill - thanks for checking and the offer.  But I made some good progress today. 

The 19/32" (.5938") reamer I bought off Ebay for $10 arrived yesterday.  So today I set the reamer up in the lathe ready to bore the cases.  But first I wanted to make sure all the cases I was going to do were the same size at the mouth.  A couple weeks ago I was looking around for something I could use to size the case a little bit.  Digging through a box of bronze bushings I found one that had a .636" ID.  That was perfect!  So I slightly polished the entrance to the bushing so it would start on a case.  I was able to neck size the case by placing the bushing on the case and running it up through the 7/8" hole in the top of my press, then knocking the case out of the bushing with a dowel. 


So I sized the 6 cases I had made before by drilling and another 20 cases, for a total of 26.  After I had the necks consistent, I set each one up in the lathe, centered it and then reamed them 1/2" deep.



So I now have 26 cases reamed to .5938".  For the time being I'm using the .590" minie' balls, so they will be a little loose in the case.  But that's ok for now.  The rifle's groove size is .594".  I want to order a mold from Accurate Molds for a short .595" diameter bullet.  After the cases are fired they will expand .001 - .002", which should result in a case mouth around .595"+/- .001", which will be perfect for the new bullets.  By neck sizing with my bushing, I should be able to get a nice snug fit for the new bullet.  Well, that's my plan.  We'll see how it goes. 

This is really an odd and obscure project.  I imagine very few of the folks on this forum have any interest in it.  But for the few of you who have been following this and offered advice and encouragement, I really appreciate it.   It's pretty unlikely that anyone else will be reloading the .58 Roberts anytime soon.  But I hope by documenting what I am doing here on the forum, perhaps in the future someone else will pick up one and search for information.  I hope this may be of some help to that person in the future.

[ndnchf]

I made a little more progress today, but let me backtrack first.  A couple weeks ago I found a fellow who would make me a push through bullet sizer die for my reloading press for a very reasonable price.  So I ordered one sized .591" to clean up the minies I bought.  They are nominally .590", but they are cast in an old mold and have a little misalignment and flashing which makes them run up to .594" at some points of measurement.  So the die rounds them all to .591".  It arrived a couple days ago.  But it didn't come with a pusher, so I made one on the lathe out of 5/8" aluminum stock.  I sized 25 bullets and it worked great.

The next issue was to make a compression plug.  I really lucked out in that my CH4D .50-95 expander die body was large enough for the .58 Roberts case to slip in.  So I went to the hardware store and bought a 5/8" fine thread bolt which matches the CH4D die body.  I cut the head off and then turned the shank down to about .585".  After a little grinding and thread clean up it fit nicely into the die body.  I bought a thin nut at the same time, so I drilled and tapped it for a set screw to lock the plug in place.  I now have a nice compression plug for the .58.

So I proceeded to load up 25 rounds.  10 with 60gr of Goex 2F, 10 with 60gr of Old Eynesford 2F and 5 with 63gr of Swiss 2F.   I compressed the powder to a depth of .345", which was about .100" of compression.  Then hand seated the bullets.  Overall cartridge length is 1.950". 



I'm not real satisfied with these bullets, but it was the best I could get to start with until I get a custom mold made.  Later this week, I'm going to see if I can improve the badly worn front sight in a non-permanent way. 

[Adirondacker]

I'm going to see if I can improve the badly worn front sight in a non-permanent way.  

Getting a sharp, highly visible front sight is more critical, I think, than anything you can do with the ammo, so if you're not willing to file the original into a better shape, I'd think about clamping on a broad, undercut blade behind the original, high enough to block out the original.  Don't know if epoxy would withstand the recoil, but I've heard of an epoxy brand called Black Max that some are using to attach scope blocks to a barrel they don't want to drill & tap.

[ndnchf]

Epoxy and a piece of brass is what I was thinking of using. Like you said, setting it in front of the original sight.  I was going to work on it today.  But I really needed to service my lathe.  So I spent most of the day taking it apart, cleaning out chips, lubericating everything and putting it back together adjusting gibs and aligning the tailstock. Its all done and ready for many more years of service.  I'll try to work on the sight this week.

[ndnchf]

I made a temporary front sight out of JB weld and a piece of brass, but got it set too far to the right, so the rifle shoots left now.  Dagnabbit   I went to the range today and tried three different loads all using the .590" 480gr minie bullet.  10 with 60gr of Goex 2F, 10 with 60gr of Olde Eynesford 2F and 5 with 63gr of Swiss 2F.  The load with 60gr of Old Eynesford 2F was the best.  I'm still gettting vertical stringing, but I havent done anything about the aweful trigger pull, so I'm not surprised.  This is 6 shots at 50 yards.  5 out of 6 grouped in about 4" on the left and one renegade at 12 O'clock.  Another fun day at the range.

[ndnchf]

 I went back to the range today with 10 rounds.  I decided to try filling the minie's cavity with bullet lube to see it that would help keep the fouling soft and improve accuracy.  I filled each bullet with lube, then placed a wax paper wad on the base to keep the lube out of the powder. 



I loaded 60gr of Olde Eynsford, compressed about .100" to a depth of .345" and then hand seated the bullet.  This load did keep the fouling softer, but made no marked increase in accuracy.  This 5 hot group is about 4.5".  If I don't count the shot to the far right, it's about 3.5". 



I'm beginning to think that with the slow 1-72" twist, I'm getting about all the accuracy I can out of this minie' bullet.  If nothing else, it consistently groups in the 4" – 5" range with a variety of loads.  If I want it to shoot better, I may have to get a custom mold.  But I still have 100 of these minies, so I"ll see what can be done with them.  If nothing else, It's a lot of fun.  Playing show and tell at the range is always interesting. 

I was shooting my little .32 long colt #4 rolling block today also.  Its weird going back and forth between the big and small rolling blocks.  The contrast is enormous.

[ndnchf]

Time for an update.  I was fortunate to obatain a few sample bullets from a fellow who had a Steve Brooks adjustable custom mold made for his .58 Berdan roller.  The mold is adjustable for length, throwing both a 400gr and a 560gr bullet. He sent me 10 of each.  Their OD is .596", .006" larger than the minies I had been using. 



I was able to load the short bullet with 60gr of Olde E 2F.  But with the long bullet I could only get in 47gr.  With the slow 1-72 twist, I expect the short bullet will shoot better.  But I won't know until i get to the range.  But I have high hopes!

[vulture]

Not sure what you finally did to get your Rolling Block shooting, but just for your info the Mag Tech shotgun brass is used all the time to make .577 Snider and .577/450 Martini Henry rounds so should be strong enough for you RB without any problem, as for the terrible tgrigger pull that is a problem that most of the military RB's shared and can be improved by replacing the main spring and trigger return spring with new ones from rollingblockparts.com.  I have replaced the springs in all of my military RB's and it greatly improved the trigger pull.  Good luck, you have a great rifle there.

[ndnchf]

I have lathe turned cases from Rocky Mountain Cartridge company that work perfectly and are much stronger than the thin magtech shotgun shells.  I may work on or replace the springs, but I'd prefer to keep it all original.  But either way, its a lot of fun to shoot.  I haven't had it to the range in a while, just too cold and snowy.  But hopefully it won't be much longer.

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   I'm really enjoying watching you create and develop your .58 Roberts cartridges! And I thought that
I was the only Obsolete Arms/Ammo Nut out there!
   Your vertical stringing may be due to your inability to neck size / crimp your lathe-turned brass; you may
be able to control that by, A) casting Very Soft, and/or B) putting spacer wads in your case, until you can
seat the cartridge with the bullet just touching the rifling leade. Another option would be to paper patch the
minies to increase their diameter (and thus, tighter case neck grip), and dip them in melted lube. Of course,
you could use brass (or, possibly plastic) 24ga. shells, but You seem to have been harassed enough over that!
   Godspeed!

           Be Well!

                       M.T.Marfield

[sail32]

I seem to remember that the British ended up issuing 2 bullet weights for the Snider, a 480 grain and a 525 grain bullet. They were issued to match the 1/78" or 1/48" twist in the Sniders, but I cannot remember which goes with which,


http://www.enfield-snider.com/Snider.htm

http://zoneballistic.com/colinsballistics/snidercartridge.html

This one gives the cartridge and bullet dimension for the long pattern Sniders, with 1/72' twist.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/3066/LOC-1448-Cartridge-Ball-Boxer-for-Snider-Rifles-Pat-2#.U0q48fTn_cs

or http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/3063/LOC-1328-Cartridges-Boxer-Ball-and-Blank-for-Snider#.U0q3rPTn_cs


HTH

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Sail;  Longer bullets require a faster twist.

[ndnchf]

Thanks for your interestest fellas.  I haven't had the rifle out to the range in a couple months.  Just been up to my ears in other projects and winter weather.  The lack of a firm crimp could be contributing to the vertical stringing.  The bullets are a firm fit, but not crimped.  But another contributing factor is that the front sight is badly worn down, almost to a nub.  So getting a consistent sight picture is difficult.  Not to mention the heavy trigger pull.  The rifle is well worn on the outside, but the inside and bore are excellent, leading me to believe it was used as a drill rifle for many years.  If it could talk, the stories it could tell!