Lyman 427098 bullets for BP shooting 44-40's

[Tater Pickens]

Buffalo Arms seems to be in a constant state of "out of stock" so I was hoping some of you fellows might tell me where I can find some 44-40 bullets from the Lyman 427098 mould, sized .429 to .430, lubed with SPG or a good  BP compatible lube, soft cast for black powder reloading for my colts and 73,s. I understand that the 427098 was very close to the original 44-40 bullet.

Thanks,

Tater Pickens

[w44wcf]

Montana Bullet Works - Alloy is 15 bhn and lube and diameter can be specified
http://montanabulletworks.com/44_40.html

Western Bullet is the least expensive but I don't know id they offer b.p. lube and what alloy they use. Bullet dia .428"
http://westernbullet.com/ly4gr15.html

Buffalo Arms offers them in 20/1 w SPG lube .428"  but they are expensive  ($22 for 50)!  ..... and they are out of stock......

w44wcf

[Tater Pickens]

Thanks 44. I'll give MBW# a shot.

They make my 45-70 bullets for me.

Tater

[Tater Pickens]

Well, Dave at MBW is shutting down for a while to have surgery and is not accepting any orders at this time and Buffalo is in constant state of back order so I was looking at the 429222HB on Buffalo. It is .429, 20-1, SPG hollow base and was wondering if any of you had any experience with this bullet in your 44-40 73's.

If shooting a hollow base is it necessary to use a wad or just compress so as the BP will fill in the hollow base?

Tater

[w44wcf]

Tater,
I have no experience with a hollow based bullet in the .44-40 but since the .45 Colt was loaded with up to 40 grs. of b.p. and used a h.b. bullet, although in a handgun, it would possibly work ok.  The depth of the hollow base in the BUffalo Arms bullet appears to be at least  2X +  as deep as .45 Colt Bullet but with the thick skirt that may not be an issue.

What may be an issue, though,  is the visiual limited amount of b.p. lube it carries.  Probably no issue with Swiss or Olde E but will most likely foul out in a rifle barrel before or after a magazine full with regular Goex and similar powders.

What b.p. are you using?

If crimping in the crimp groove makes the cartridge o.a.l. slightly too long for the rifle, the bullet could be seated deeper and a slight crimp applied.... unless you have a Lee FCD, in which case a deeper crimp can be made.

Hope that MBW's surgery goes well and he is back at work very soon.......

w44wcf

[Tater Pickens]

44- I will using old e and I always use the factory crimp die on my 44-40's.

Thanks for your feedback,

Tater

[Cliff Fendley]

I thought this was asked before but I can't find it.

Can the 427098 be sized to .429? What size does it drop from the mold?

[Coal Creek Griff]

My Lyman drops wheel weight alloy at .427. I "Beagled" it up to .429. If you order the Accurate version, you can get what you want.

CC Griff

[Cliff Fendley]

Does Accurate have that bullet listed? Which one is it? There are a couple that look close on their chart. Thanks.

[Coal Creek Griff]

W44WCF is the expert on this topic.  Hopefully he'll notice this conversation and fill in the blanks.

If I understand correctly, the Accurate 43-210B is a copy of the earlier Lyman 427098 http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-210B-D.png.  W44WCF had Tom at Accurate Molds make a similar bullet, but with a larger lube capacity for blackpowder and a small crimp groove.  The result was the 43-215C.  See http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40897.0.html and http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-215C-D.png.  I had a lot of trouble getting my Lyman 427098 to function well with smokeless loads in my Uberti 1873 rifle (telescoping bullets was a big factor), so I went with the 43-215C, even though I shoot smokeless most of the time.  It has been a great bullet.  When it is loaded in the case, it is very similar in appearance to cartridges I loaded with bullets from my antique Winchester mould.

Do a search under the main forum for "Accurate 427098" and you'll find a lot of conversation about this in the past.

CC Griff

[Tater Pickens]

In that I don't pour my own so to speak, and since Montana Bullet Works is shut down for a while and Buffalo Arms is constantly out of stock on the 427098 for my 44-40...does any one know of someone selling commercially the Accurate 43-215, which seems, thanks to 44wcf, to be an improvement over the 427098? ...or is anyone familiar or have experience with the Black Dawge 44-40 205grn bullet shown on their site for the 44-40? I know it states it is lubed with SPG for black  powder but I was wondering if this is a 427098 or 43-215 or what???

I will be loading with Old E on these rounds

Any guidance or info about your experiences would be appreciated.

Thanks,

tater

[Cliff Fendley]

The accurate 43-215 is more like a big lube version of the 427098.

[w44wcf]

Cliff,
I have several Ideal / Lyman 427098 molds and the bullets measure anywhere from .427" to .432"(older Ideal) depending on the mold. As CC Griff indicated, the Accurate mold number is 43-210B.  "Fairshake" on this website had Tom make that bullet. The advantage is that one can order the mold in the diameter one choses and the bullet has the flat bottomed grooves with nicely tapered sides for easy bullet release from the mold. Also the flat bottomed grooves hold a bit more lube.

Tater,
I don't know of anyone who casts the 43-215C commercially but I would think that Whyte Leather works might  if someone purchased the mold for him. http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/BigLube.html

The 43-215C follows the profile of the vintage 427098 .44-40 bullet but with slightly added lube capacity (determined by testing) for using standard Goex and similar powders.  The 427098 runs just fine with Olde E and Swiss.

w44wcf

[Tater Pickens]

44, thanks for your feedback.

Guess I will just have to wait until MBW or Buffalo gets back up to speed and get some 427098's from them.

I am waiting for delivery of the   429222hb's from Buffalo to see how they work

Do you have any experience with the 205 grn 44-40 bullets offered by Black Dawge? I have emailed them to see if they can tell me which mold was used to pour their bullets but have not heard back from them.

Thanks,

tater

[w44wcf]

Tater,
If it is the same bullet that I bought from them a couple of years ago it had two lube grooves but only held .7 grs of lube as compared to the 1.0 gr of the 427098. The nose was also a bit different from the 427098.

You might try Western Bullets. They show the 427098 at .428" diameter. I don't know what lube they use.
http://westernbullet.com/ly4gr15.html

w44wcf

[Tater Pickens]

44, I checked with Western as you had suggested in an earlier post and they advised me that if I wanted them lubed with SPG or some other black powder compatible lube that they would send them to me unsized and unlubed and i could size and lube them myself with whatever lube I wanted. I am not set up for that so I

guess i'll just wait until MBW's is back in business or Buffalo gets some in stock. I can continue to use Springfield Slims mav Dutchman big lubes.til that happens. I just like to load and shoot my guns as was done when they were new back in the 1870's 1880's etc and that is why I have been pursuing the 427098's.

Thanks again for taking the time to provide me the benefit of your knowledge and expertise.

Tater

[Tater Pickens]

44- I got the hollow base 429222's from Buffalo Arms,  loaded them up with 35 grns of 2f Old E and went to the range today. I shot 50 rounds with good grouping, and no hard fouling or leading. The lube was apparently adequate enough for my 24 inch barrell 73.

The only draw back is that they are too expensive at $22.00 for 50...plus it is not the 427098 that i am waiting for from Buffalo or MBW. Hopefully MBW will be back in business soon after recovering from surgery and i will go with his bullet at $22.00/100- versus Buffalo at $22.00/50.

Slims big lube is always there but i would like to shoot the round as originally designed if possible...the 427098.

Tater

[w44wcf]

Tater,
Thank you for the range report. Glad to hear that they worked well with the Olde E powder....another good experience with the new powder.

While waiting for MBW to get back in operation, one option that you might want to consider is getting the unlubed bullets from Western and pan lubing them which only requires a shallow pan, Lube and a heat source (oven).

w44wcf

[Tater Pickens]

44, the HB bullet worked well, but  as I mentioned they are right pricey and are not the old original that I am striving for.

The pan lubing idea of the Western bullet would be a good last ditch approach but at this point I have enough left of Springfield Slims Big Lubes to keep me shooting until MBW's get back in business or Buffalo get more in their inventory. Dave has said to get back in touch mid november to see where he is with cranking back up his operation.

I broached the subject with Slim about introducing the 427098 to his line but he said his 44 slim is about the same as the 427098 and it would not pay him to get such a mold. I could not see the resemblance. It would be a 4 cavity vs a 6 cavity and would slow down production also. I didn't pursue it any further with him in that eventually MBW and /or Buffalo would have them available.

I received your PM about a sample of 25 and I will be happy to accept your generous offer but will be happy to compensate you for them as well as shipping cost.

I am road kill on the information highway when it comes to these computers so I hope i pushed all the right buttons to properly send you a PM so if you do not receive it let me know and i will try again.

Thanks again for your invaluable insight into this sickness we all seem to have about loading and shooting these old guns, and for your generosity, just the cowboy way i quess.

Tater

[Tater Pickens]

I have been having trouble finding anyone that markets the 427098 for BP use. Buffalo Arms has been on backorder for months  and the only other source, I know of is Montana Bullets Works but they are shut down for a while with the owner out with some kind of surgery. Western Bullets offers them but not lubed for BP. I  emailed several days ago about buying some unlubed and I would pan lube with SPG. I also asked them in that they do not offer the 427098 lubed for BP are they cast soft such as 20-1 or hard?...No response as yet.

Have any of you fellows had any experience with the bullets from Western Bullets, or know of any other source for the 427098 lubed for black powder?

Tater Pickens