M1860 Carbine: To buy, or not to buy. That is the question.

[djossi@yahoo.com]

I recently came across an M1860 Carbine on an auction website.  The price, approx. $2700, seems reasonable. However, one of the main lessons I've learned thus far regarding auctions is their guiding principle: caveat emptor.

After reviewing the pictures accompanying the ad (I've attached four of them), I have the following concerns:

• There is no barrel band. It's clear, however, that it did have one installed originally given the markings on the fore stock. That means I will have to go through the time and expense to purchase an original replacement.
• The fore stock screw washer looks quite shiny. Could it be a replacement?
• There is no rear sling swivel on the stock. Although I've seen rifles without them, I have only seen a very few carbines that way. Is there a any logical explanation for why this carbine doesn't have one?
• I'm very concerned about the crack in the stock that appears to be propagating from the upper butt plate screw forward, the hole in the wood at the center of the buttplate, and the fact that it appears the butt plate is pulling away from the stock. Should I be concerned about any of these?

I realize that it's impossible to estimate the value of an antique firearm based on a few photos. However, I would be interested in knowing if anyone might hazard a guess as to how much, in percentage terms, the above flaws and any others that you spot would detract from the value of the rifle.

Thank!

[Two Flints]

Hi Dave,

I purchased a Spencer Carbine in much worse condition then the one you have just described.  Your concerns are justified . . . but not because of the cosmetic condition of the Spencer Carbine, but because of the selling price.

After reviewing the pictures accompanying the ad (I've attached four of them), I have the following concerns:

•There is no barrel band. It's clear, however, that it did have one installed originally given the markings on the fore stock. That means I will have to go through the time and expense to purchase an original replacement. S&S Firearms for any and all replacement parts

•The fore stock screw washer looks quite shiny. Could it be a replacement? S&S Firearms

•There is no rear sling swivel on the stock. Although I've seen rifles without them, I have only seen a very few carbines that way. Is there a any logical explanation for why this carbine doesn't have one?  S&S Firearms

•I'm very concerned about the crack in the stock that appears to be propagating from the upper butt plate screw forward, the hole in the wood at the center of the buttplate, and the fact that it appears the butt plate is pulling away from the stock. (With some care can be repaired, from what I can see)

Shop around a bit . . . don't buy too quickly.  That BEST Spencer Carbine is out there to be had . . .just be patient!

BTW, that beat up old Spencer I purchased cost me $400.00 and loads, shoots, and ejects just fine after buying the replacement parts and getting every thing to fit properly!

Two Flints

[Two Flints]

Dave,

See this dealer - http://tenring.com/?s=spencer  if my link doesn't work let me know.  Scroll down and see his Spencer offerings.

Two Flints

[ndnchf]

I'm no expert, but that seems high to me for the condition. Take a look at this one:

http://www.csarms.com/scripts/csa_view2.asp?ID=5849

I have connection to the seller, but I have bought guns from him before and he accepted a fair offer.

[Snakeeater]

An original forend replacement can be had for around $100 (or least that's how much the one I just bought from John Spangler cost, and it was in near unused condition and included the screw escutheon). As for the crack in the butt-stock, that is a fairly simple fix with some acraglass, maybe a bronze pin or two. As for the "hole" through the stock at the magazine well, the wood here is only about 1/8th-inch thick and could be repaired with acraglass or by a wood inset (not difficult to do) and will hide if you carefully match the woodgrain. You could even cut the inset from the existing stock (inside beneath the buttplate) and obtain a perfect match for grain and color.

A rear sling swivel from S&S is about $30, plus another $6 for the pivot screw. You will, however, probably have to shop around for a carbine barrel band since the rear rifle barrel band is slightly larger in size, and the middle band is too small. You may have to substitute a repro barrel (about $16) and until you find the right original band to fit. As whether to buy or not to buy, that's up to you... but unless you have a particular hankering for this particular carbine... you may find something you like more next week or the week after. But there's certainly nothing wrong with owning multiples.

[DJ]

The price seems a little high in light of the issues mentioned plus a few more that appear in the photos.  This gun would need some significant work to make it "right."

I wouldn't buy it at that price.

--DJ

[Snakeeater]

Here's the methodology I use to evaluate many of my purchases. For Spencers, for example, I created an Excel spreadsheet divided by model, beginning with the Navy Rifle, Army Rifle, then the carbines in the order in which they were produced. Then in sequential order by serial number I maintain a working list of all the Spencers I have encountered, a brief description of their condition and features (i.e. with or without Stabler device, missing parts, etc), the sale price and vendor/seller. Each section's prices is summed by a total, and divided by the quantity to determine the average price per model, and a similar equation is used to determine pricing by photo grades (i.e. 90%, 80%, 75%, 60%, 50%, etc). Presently, I have about 250 guns in the enumeration that were sold over the past three years, so this gives me an approximation of how much a rifle or carbine might retail given a specific condition or grade. The photograding system is similar to what is used by the Blue Book folks, such that the really mint guns in the listing don't overshadow the pricing for the junkers or parts guns. So most of the Spencers I buy are ones I intend to shoot in competition or simply add to my study collection. Some others here may have similar methods for determining values they are willing to pay for guns. But in addition to this listing, I also have a spreadsheet enumerating the individual parts and their replacement cost or retail value (like if purchased from S&S), such that between the first evaluation based on retail prices of hundreds of guns, I can determine whether the parts in the gun are present in the retail asking price, if not, how much more money it may cost in repairs to get me there. That way, say you find a Spencer shotgun conversion for $1500 and based on parts prices, you determine it will cost another $1100 to restore it to its original spec, means that you potentially could have $2600 invested in a gun that might only be worth $2000. If say the gun is in really nice condition and would be worth $3500 if restored might provide more incentive to buy it at $2000 under its potential restored retail. So realising this before you buy is the homework you need to do with every purchase. Or not and just take a gamble.

[treebeard]

I can only admire Snakeater's scientific method--it will keep you out of trouble for sure. However for better or worse I jumped
on my 1st Spencer when it was offered for well under the price of a reproduction and was complete with no missing parts.
This appealed to the collector part of me but the shooter part had to add in the cost of center fire block and follower.
Also the cost of reloading componets for the original calibers is much higher than some of the non original Repro calibers.

There is all ways risk in buying sight unseen no matter how good the pictures and positive feedback on the seller. The advice
NDNCHf gave on dealing with reputable dealers is well taken--I may not have made my gamble if I had read his thread first.

[Ibgreen]

I figure since I got my 1868NM rifle as a wedding present from a high school friend, I got in it for cheap!  Especially since I am still married.

[ndnchf]

There is all ways risk in buying sight unseen no matter how good the pictures and positive feedback on the seller. The advice
NDNCHf gave on dealing with reputable dealers is well taken--I may not have made my gamble if I had read his thread first.

In the last 5 years I have bought quite a few rifles off the internet based on photos and descriptions.  I've always been a bit nervous doing it, but its the trade-off for shopping in a nationwide market.  Buying from a reputable dealer increases the odds of being happy with your purchase.  As an example, I bought my M1871 Springfield Spencer from "The Horse Soldier" in Gettysburg, PA.  I've been in their shop many times and drooled over their hundreds of antique guns.  They were always friendly and their prices seemed fair.  I saw this rifle on their web site (which has excellent photos too).  I called them up and asked detailed questions, and then said I wanted to think about it and I'd let them know.  While stewing on it, I saw on their web site that they were attending a large Civil War guns and relics show in Richmind, Virginia the following week.  Richmond is only an hour away from me.  So I called them back and asked if they would be willing to bring the rifle to the Civil War show so I could examine it in person.  Much to my delight, they said sure, no problem.  The following saturday I showed up at the show and they had the rifle tucked under the table waiting for me.  After examining it closely and talking with the owner, we settled on a price sutable to both of us (and just a few hundred dollars more than a new Amrisport rifle) and I came home with my prize.