Unique belly gun... please tell me this isn't what I think this is.

[will52100]

That still works, even if it's a repo.  How many guys today get a patterson as there first cap and ball pistol?

[Short Knife Johnson]

Well technically it isn't my first cap and ball.  About 18 years ago I bought a pair of Navies.  The second generation Colts that were boxed commemoratives.  Unfired, Lee/Grant.  Found out it would cost me a pile of value to shoot them so I never did and moved them along. 

As I see it, I didn't so much as own them, but borrowed them from the Great Gun Continuum.  So yes, this could be viewed as my first cap and ball.

[hellgate]

If it's a real Patterson each time you take it out, fire it, disassemble and clean it it is probably losing several hundred dollars in value by putting wear on the finish, screw heads, etc. I would oil it well and leave it alone until authenticated or not.

[sail32]

Page 53 of Dennis Adler's book shows 3 copies of Paterson's revolvers.
One is a copy by J.P. Sauer & Sons, a cased revolver in a case with accessories.
The second is a Belgium Brevet copy of a No. 2, sold in England.
The third is a one in a case with accessories that a Dennis LeVett is almost convinced that is a European copy. He also suspects that it may be an American copy made in Winterset, Iowa. Perhaps a copy made in the 1800s.

[Stu Kettle]

If it's a real Patterson each time you take it out, fire it, disassemble and clean it it is probably losing several hundred dollars in value by putting wear on the finish, screw heads, etc. I would oil it well and leave it alone until authenticated or not.

I think too much emphasis is put on the dollar value of old guns - they were made to shoot.  There are examples in museums for people to look at forever & dream about how many dollars they're worth.  Those privately owned should be enjoyed by the people who own them - whatever that means to them.  If it were mine, I'd shoot it.  Taken care of, it could be shot a lot of times over the next 150 years.

[Trailrider]

Page 53 of Dennis Adler's book shows 3 copies of Paterson's revolvers.
One is a copy by J.P. Sauer & Sons, a cased revolver in a case with accessories.
The second is a Belgium Brevet copy of a No. 2, sold in England.
The third is a one in a case with accessories that a Dennis LeVett is almost convinced that is a European copy. He also suspects that it may be an American copy made in Winterset, Iowa. Perhaps a copy made in the 1800s.

I haven't looked to see in which book there is a picture lately, but I made several holsters for Dennis' Patterson replica, for which he credited me. I had one of the guns in my possession for about a week to make the pattern, so I know it was a replica.

[Short Knife Johnson]

I think too much emphasis is put on the dollar value of old guns - they were made to shoot.  There are examples in museums for people to look at forever & dream about how many dollars they're worth.  Those privately owned should be enjoyed by the people who own them - whatever that means to them.  If it were mine, I'd shoot it.  Taken care of, it could be shot a lot of times over the next 150 years.

Couldn't agree more.  I use only proper screwdrivers to avoid further damage, and there is no exterior finish to mark up.  Besides I'll bet if you had an original Paterson, there would be a lineup of shooters to pay the "several hundred dollars" worth of damage to get a chance to shoot it.     

Anyway, still no farther ahead in my quest, but I have a suspicion that it may be a British made copy.  No matter the outcome, it will be loved and cherished.

[Fox Creek Kid]

http://www.bluebookofgunvalues.com/Gun_Values/Gun_Manufacturer_Models.aspx?id=COLTS_MANUFACTURING_COMPANY_LLC_Revolvers_Percussion_Paterson_Variations

[Short Knife Johnson]

Haven't heard anything from the guy in California as of yet. 

[brazosdave]

Thanks for the lead on the book.  The barrel profile looks the same as the pictures I have dug up on the internet. 

I'm still not jumping up and down exclaiming it to be original.  I don't know if I will ever know for certain.  Things like this probably require hands-on inspection by a reputable expert.  Waiting until Wednesday to phone a guy in California that the BBHC directed me to.

In the meantime, we loaded it and shot it.     15 grains of FFFg, lube wad, ball, then some Bore Butter.  #11 caps and kerpow.

We fired 10 rounds at an old building on a friend's property.  More precisely the old house we used to cast bullets in.  2 balls actually failed to penetrate the fir planks, and the rest bounced around inside the building.  Very informal, but wow is that thing accurate.  Nasty trigger pull, but everything seemed to stack into a nice round 3" group at 20 yards. 

If this thing turns out to be real, how many guys (still alive anyway) could claim the 1st C&B pistol they ever fired was a Paterson?   

I for one am glad you shot it.  I have an heirloom rifle that is an old Evick from sometime in the early 1800's, and i shot that.  Life is too short to keep guns in safes and not fire them.  Unless your secret fantasy has always been to be a museum curator.  Then, I guess, it would be o.k.

[Coffinmaker]

Been thinking.  Since your gun is almost sans markings save the barrel marking.  I'd almost bet it's an Italian that has been defarbed and refinished.

Coffinmaker

[Short Knife Johnson]

Finally got off my butt and got some photos of the inside of this thing.  Now this is not meant as a slight to Buck Stinson's research but this piece is not a .28 calibre Pocket model, but a (representation of) .36 calibre #5 Holster model or "Texas Paterson."  True the early pieces had squareback cylinders, this one features the stagecoach scenes and not the Centaur scene of the Pocket.  I'm also not going to proclaim this to be a genuine article.  The one thing I firmly believe is that the hand cut, slightly off-centre screw heads do not scream modern repro made to look old.  But in the end, it matters not - truth be told, if it was modern piece, it would be a relief because I would shoot the hell out of it.   

Time for more pictures. 




11 grooves and 11 lands.

[hellgate]

Did you check the thread pitch on the screws? If metric, It's european. If standard then US.

[Short Knife Johnson]

I'll have to find my thread pitch gauges.

[will52100]

Any word on it yet?

[Short Knife Johnson]

Kind of at a standstill with this as of yet.  Shown it to a couple of C&B aficionados and the consensus is that it is a very well made knockoff.  And that due to the "heavy" steel and hand cut screw heads, it has to be 19th Century manufactured.

So the hunt continues.

[St. George]

Steel's supposed to be heavy - originals were akin to wrought iron.

As to 'hand-cut' screw heads - that's easy to do, and early repros from Italy and Spain all looked like that.

Look more to a de-farbed Navy Arms replica from the '60's.

Scouts Out!

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   If that Paterson proves to be a Colt, a domestic copy, or European 'brevette' from the 19th C., I am THRILLED for you! If, however, you have a 20th C. Replica, you have one hell of a classy replica. It may be worth noting that I recall seeing in an early Dixie Gun Works catalogue a "Paterson No. 5" replica with a 12" barrel, so there "may" be more than one manufacturer of these replicas.
   Nonetheless, if you paid less than the price of a modern replica... YOU have hit a home run!!

         Be Well!

                 M.T.Marfield 

[Short Knife Johnson]

Thank you very much. 

It doesn't matter much when this thing was made, but I want to find out by whom.  Still doubtful it is an Italian copy, but if it is, so what?  Had a thought the other day though - an acquaintance of mine does lots of business with Italy and is good friends of the Pedersolis.  Should get him to see if they could help.

[Short Knife Johnson]

So, I got the brainwave to contact the NRA National Firearms Museum in Fairfax VA yesterday. This has still been bugging me.
Spoke to a fellow by the name of Logan.  He had me send him some pictures and my description of the piece. First thing this morning, I received this reply.

What you have is a cut-down No. 5 made during the Colt centennial. Someone took great care in aging the piece to make it look like an original, but to a trained eye, it is not.

If you'd be interested in donating it to the museum, we'd love to add it to our "Fakes and Forgeries" collection.

Does this sound legitimate to anyone?