Making guns Faster

[cowboyjared]

Did gunfighters in the old west mess with the mechanics of their weapon in order to make them faster (short stroke kits, etc) or did they just buy them off the shelf  and use them. I find it somewhat sad that these quick draw shooters turn the hammers up on the guns so they can fan them and they way they draw is all about speed and they couldnt do anything besides walk

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Did gunfighters in the old west mess with the mechanics of their weapon in order to make them faster (short stroke kits, etc) or did they just buy them off the shelf  and use them. I find it somewhat sad that these quick draw shooters turn the hammers up on the guns so they can fan them and they way they draw is all about speed and they couldnt do anything besides walk

Excuse me sir, but I must take exception to the broad brush that you are using to paint this picture.  No old west gun men did not have short stroke kits and most likely would not fan a gun because it is not accurate.

Being a person that partakes of the sport of fast draw in the form of Cowboy Fast Draw, we are not allowed to change any of the original items on our revolvers with the exception of smoothing internals and lighter springs.  Few if any of our competitors fan again do to the accuracy issue of hitting a target 21 feet away.

But most of us can walk, again with exception as there are some in wheel chairs.

[Pettifogger]

Gun fighting as depicted in Hollywood movies is fiction.  Most gunfights were back shooting, drunken brawls over gambling etc.  There are only one or two examples where two men faced off in the street and they didn't do it Matt Dillon style drawing from leather.  If you have ever seen Appaloosa all the gun fights in that movie started with the guns already out of leather.  That is pretty close to the very few documented gunfights.  The guns in the old days had very heavy hammer springs and that made the trigger pull on some guns fairly heavy.  There is evidence some people had their triggers worked on to lighten them up a bit, but no one did action jobs on their guns like is currently done.

[Shotgun Franklin]

The only thing wrong with SASS is that they have let the gamers turn a lot of the game into a trick gun contest. They say that 'Ol' So and So would still be really fast and really good without all the gun alterations' but we'll never know will we?

[St. George]

What with C&WAS turning the Old West into a game, it's hard to remember that the 'real' cowboy bought and used his weapons as tools - not as sporting equipment.

Most probably never shot three full boxes through their sidearms - but they carried them in all manner of weather - the weapon of choice, and what likely saw the most actual use would've been the rifle or carbine - and that mostly for filling the pot.

They cowboy didn't sit around the campfire, installing music wire springs and short-stroke kits - if he did anything at all, he just kept adding oil, without disassembly of the piece.

'Woulda if They Coulda' is all fun and games - but when reality rears its ugly head - it soon falls away.

Scouts Out!

[Jefro]

Howdy cowboyjared, Yes gunfighters of old did have special things done to there guns, there's plenty of proof of that in documents to Colt from folks like Bat Masterson. As for turning up hammers and fanning?? sorry but none of the goes on at SASS, NCOWS, or CFDA.......you must be thinking of some other sport, maybe World Fast Draw or sumpin
  While fanning is allowed in CFDA no one I know of does it, because you have to start with the off hand outside the body plain, much faster to just use the one had draw.

Do yerself (and us) a favor and go to a couple of CAS matches, then come back and tell us all about it. I think you'll be plesantly suprised Good Luck


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Red Cent]

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee189/redcent69/Random%20pictures/beat-a-dead-horse_zpsa27a9136.jpg

[MedicineMan]

First thing "I" will point out is this....
You won't get any points if you talk against the "race guns" in any form or fashion.
Too many folks have done the mods and profit from the changes made.
You can't change the past, and the allowing of modified firearms is in the past.
So just play the game with whatever you choose and make it as fun as you possibly can FOR YOURSELF.
That's how the "90%" do it.

(a side note, if it helps, is the knowledge that you are doing it with "stock" equipment and YOUR scores are "pure".)

Secondly....
The game is NEVER EVER going to be all things to all people, nor meet the preferences of all shooters.
If you can have fun doing it "your way", then you win hands down over anyone who competes and grouses about some perceived "unfair advantage.
AND.... WE ALL START AT THE BOTTOM.
What I mean is that you can't walk into your first match with the best gear available AND shooting the best scores in the sport.
It takes practice, experience, and sometimes even natural skills.
Every single person who wins the "big matches" has shot MANY matches and MANY MANY rounds in practice.

Please, do me a favor (even though you don't know me or owe me).
Come into the sport and just shoot for fun with whatever you have.
Why???
I need someone at "MY" level to shoot with.    

(And while you are at it, IGNORE the "gamers" who seem to talk down to us. They are "winners", and as such are just enjoying their 15 minutes they earned.)

Oh yeah.... one more thing....

Practice hard like I intend to.
That way when (IF) we use our "stock equipment" and beat the "gamers".... we can laugh while they protest and squeal that we "shouldn't have been able to do that".
LOL

[Jefro]

The only thing wrong with SASS is that they have let the gamers turn a lot of the game into a trick gun contest. They say that 'Ol' So and So would still be really fast and really good without all the gun alterations' but we'll never know will we?

Howdy Shotgun, well actually they have. Bud (Badlands Bud) borrowed his dads (BJT) 44/40s a few years ago to shoot the EOT with. He was on track to another World Champion when one of the guns had a malfunction, he still finished in the top 5. Spence's (Lead Despenser) first action job was to fill his Rugers full of toothpaste and work the action a few thousand times while studying or watching TV. I can't remember if it was Shakalo Joe at EOT or Persidigator at Winter Range, but they won that year with a 1894 Marlin. Take a look back at some of our proud ex champs, you'll see China Champ's name several times, he did it shooting an 1892 Winchester. FWIW they didn't let the "gamers" turn this sport/game into anything, any and all mods had to be approved by the folks that own this game, the Wild Bunch.
    The point is all these folks put in countless hours of dry and live fire practice, practice, practice. China Champ was so smooth with his transitions and shotgun skills that it looked like he was in slow motion. Said a match can't be won with revolvers....but it could be lost with the shotgun. Evil Roy's grand daughter (Holly Terror) parlayed her cowboy action shooting skills into shooting for Team Glock. Spence is a guest firearms instructor on the TV show Top Shot. These folks are still really good and fast with about any gun they handle. I've had the pleasure to shoot with a few of these folks, they are true ambassadors of our sport and I'm proud to have them represent us.
Past EOT Champions

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Abilene]

When Shalako Joe won EOT the second time in 2008 he used a non-short-stroked '73 (it did have an action job, though).  He was given that rifle by Cimarron after he won EOT in 2002 (with a Marlin) and it had a short stroke done to it but he didn't like it so he had it returned to stock stroke.

[Jefro]

When Shalako Joe won EOT the second time in 2008 he used a non-short-stroked '73 (it did have an action job, though).  He was given that rifle by Cimarron after he won EOT in 2002 (with a Marlin) and it had a short stroke done to it but he didn't like it so he had it returned to stock stroke.

Thanks Abilene, I thought it was Joe, just couldn't remember. Good Luck

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Shotgun Franklin]

Yes, I've shot with a few of the Top Guns too. I never said they were bad people. On occasion they might have to use a stock gun but that is the exception. Of course that one of the 4 guns used wasn't tricked out does not change the fact that the Gamers run SASS and that it has turned into a race gun sport. Gamers well always defend the Race Guns, the rest of us will be in the pack.

[Jefro]

First thing "I" will point out is this....
You won't get any points if you talk against the "race guns" in any form or fashion.
Too many folks have done the mods and profit from the changes made.
You can't change the past, and the allowing of modified firearms is in the past.
So just play the game with whatever you choose and make it as fun as you possibly can FOR YOURSELF.
That's how the "90%" do it.I thought we all did this for fun. A 20 second stage for one shooter=fun, while another may shoot it in 40 seconds with BP fire and smoke=fun. At the end of the stage the grin is the same

(a side note, if it helps, is the knowledge that you are doing it with "stock" equipment and YOUR scores are "pure".)
Nope, your scores ain't gonna be "pure" unless you show up on horse, no gun cart, and shoot real BP
Secondly....
The game is NEVER EVER going to be all things to all people, nor meet the preferences of all shooters.
If you can have fun doing it "your way", then you win hands down over anyone who competes and grouses about some perceived "unfair advantage.?? sorry I just don't comprendo this one
AND.... WE ALL START AT THE BOTTOM.
What I mean is that you can't walk into your first match with the best gear available AND shooting the best scores in the sport.
It takes practice, experience, and sometimes even natural skills.
Every single person who wins the "big matches" has shot MANY matches and MANY MANY rounds in practice.

Please, do me a favor (even though you don't know me or owe me).
Come into the sport and just shoot for fun with whatever you have.
Why???
I need someone at "MY" level to shoot with.    

(And while you are at it, IGNORE the "gamers" who seem to talk down to us. They are "winners", and as such are just enjoying their 15 minutes they earned.) Ingnore them if you like, I'm sure they will oblige you. I've never seen a so called "gamer" look down their nose at anyone. In fact they are some of the first ones to help out a new shooter

Oh yeah.... one more thing....

Practice hard like I intend to.
That way when (IF) we use our "stock equipment" and beat the "gamers".... we can laugh while they protest and squeal that we "shouldn't have been able to do that".Whatever floats yer boat pard
LOL

Howdy MedicineMan, dang pard I don't know where to start. First have you been to any matches yet?? Not sure where yer getting all this info, but this ain't ISPCCIPA...etc. If you want to shoot box stock then have at it. I cringe every time I see a new shooter fight the Marlin jamb, or the 92 eject one stick one. These stock guns come with heavy springs to overcome CNC machining and poor fit and finish. Me, I want all my guns to be smooth and reliable, I'm glad we have talanted gunsmiths that can make this happen. The only really modified gun is the short stroked 73, the rest of them are just slicked up by smoothing the action, timing, and installing lighter springs.

As to the "gamer", all the ones I know I call friend. Yes there are highly skilled competetive shooters in this game that put in countless hours of dry and live fire practice, practice, practice. We do use a timer with penalties for misses and Ps. They are among the first ones to welcome you to the club, offer to loan you guns, and give tips on how to improve your game. They are also among the ones that have the stages all set and fresh paint on the targets when you pull in the praking lot. They are among the ones that take the time to become RO I and RO II certified so they can run the timer all day to help you have a safe and fun match. And they stay at the end of the match to help put the steel away. 

     To all those "I just came to shoot for fun" group, do us all a favor and tell the RO to go sit down for a few minutes cause you just came to shoot for FUN. If all I wanted to do was just yuck it up for FUN shooting lead to hear the steel ring, I could do that at home and save a bunch o'money.

  No one group has a lock on FUN. The "gamers" have FUN competing against each other and shooting a fast smooth stage. I have FUN making smoke and fire shooting real BP while trying to break 40 seconds. We are blessed here in the Carolinas to have several of the top 25 shooters in the world, as well as several World Champs in their chosen categories, they all like to have FUN just like anyone else.
   Want to have some FUN?? Come on down to shoot with the Carolina Cowboys "Home of  The Cheatin' Gamey Bastards " Good Luck
Carolina Cowboys


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Red Cent]

"...while they protest and squeal that we "shouldn't have been able to do that"."

In about 14 years of competing in SASS, I have never heard anyone say something close to this.

[Jefro]

"...while they protest and squeal that we "shouldn't have been able to do that"."

In about 14 years of competing in SASS, I have never heard anyone say something close to this.

I know I couldn't think of a thing to say either

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Lead Waster]

Another thought about "slick guns".

I've shot some USPSA, and one frustrating fun-killer is when your gun jams. My CZ SP-01 is a sweet shooter, but for some reason, sometimes a magazine just gets stuck (I think it's the grips are too tight or something because I have to unscrew a grip to make le the magazine out if it gets stuck). And some old magazines would not seat properly if I didn't slam them up there. So...you fix those things. That's not really cheating or super-gaming, it's just getting your guns to work well. And heck, if the springs are light and it's just easier to cock, then so be it....the best gun in world is not going to make you a better shooter ... but practice can!

I picked up my new Rossi '92 and worked the lever...wow, it's clunky. I don't think it would be unfair of me to try and clean it up a bit before going to a shoot (which I haven't yet). Even if you handed me the top shooter's '92, I would still shoot about the same I would with my clunky '92. Seriously, a good gun helps a bit, but you still have to transition targets, reaquire sight picture and hit the target (well with USPSA you do anyway).

Your guns should at the very least be tested and "tuned" for reliability. Or else you have to know your malfunction drills really well!

Making guns "faster" just means making the guns match your ability.

my 2 cents!

[Red Cent]

What he /i\ said.

[Pettifogger]

When you play video games, you are a gamer.  When you play Monopoly, you are a gamer.  When you play baseball, you are a gamer.  Any time you play a game and are are following the rules, you are a gamer.  If you are playing a game and not following the rules, you are a cheater.  When you complain about people who are following the rules, you are a whiner.

[MedicineMan]

GEEZE.... you guys made a positive intended post, that was meant to boost the guys outlook, into some kind of attack on the way I worded things.

Please re-read with the frame of mind that I was attempting to convey to him that he hasn't got to spend a second mortgage or win every time to have fun.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

GEEZE.... you guys made a positive intended post, that was meant to boost the guys outlook, into some kind of attack on the way I worded things.

Please re-read with the frame of mind that I was attempting to convey to him that he hasn't got to spend a second mortgage or win every time to have fun.

It might be unfortunate that communication is about the way we word things.  Word it wrong it will be taken wrong.

Note:  I do not believe the OP even mentioned CAS OR SASS or even sarsaparilla for that matter. His post was two parts.

1. A question:  Did gunfighters in the old west mess with the mechanics of their weapon in order to make them faster?

2. Bad mouthing, ridiculing or being negative (readers choice)the sport of Fast Draw. " I find it somewhat sad that these quick draw shooters turn the hammers up on the guns so they can fan them and they way they draw is all about speed and they couldnt do anything besides walk".  Now this brought to mind a question in my mind:  Why would Fast draw not be about speed?  I will also admit that I did not understand at all the remark, "Do anything besides walks"