Shooting the Model 1871 Springfield Spencer Infantry Rifle

[ndnchf]

This is a follow – on thread to my "Need help with feeding problem thread".
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,49487.0.html

Since I'm over the feeding difficulties and on to shooting, I thought it best to start a new thread to document my shooting and load development.   

The Model 1871 Springfield Spencer is an oddball rifle.  For those who may not be familiar with these rifles, I'll offer a summary.  Springfield Armory made up around 1100 of them from model 1865 Burnside carbines using, for the most part, left over parts from other rifles. The 32.5" barrels with sights are left over Model 1868 trapdoor parts.  The fore ends are very likely left overs from the Model 1870 Springfield Remington navy rifles.  The cleaning rod is from the Model 1868 trapdoor as well, but is shortened to 29.5" fit the fore end.  If you look at a photo of this rifle, you'll see that the cleaning rod looks short.  It IS short!  It was cut short so the cleaning rod catch in the fore end would engage the locking recess in the cleaning rod and hold it firmly in place. So the rod is about 3" too short for the barrel, thus useless.  Very odd indeed and very un-Springfield like.   It almost seems like building these rifles was someone's idea of busy work to keep the skilled workers at Springfield employed during austere times, but not requiring much in the way of new materials. 



This rifle has a long chamber and after a lot of experimentation, I determined that it needs a long cartridge to feed well.  I cut my .50-70 Starline brass down to 1.356" and load to an OAL of 1.680" - 1.684".  Here is a Starline .56-50 case on the left, same case with bullet loaded to 1.680" OAL and my long case loaded to 1.680"



The longer case that fits my Springfield Spencer is surprising close to the .50-45 center fire cartridge used in the Springfield-Remington Model 1867 navy cadet rifles.  There were two versions of this cartridge.  One case was 1.275" long, the other was 1.332" long.  The 1.356" length of my cases is not based on historical precedent, but simply the length I came up with after determining what I think is the best OAL using a Lyman 515139 bullet.  After determining best OAL, I measured to where the case mouth would just cover the forward driving band.  The difference in case length between the Model 1867 Springfield navy cadet rifle's 1.332" long case  .50-45 cartridge, and my Model 1871 Springfield Spencer's 1.356" long case is only .024".  Very similar indeed.  Coincidence?  maybe.  I could easily trim my cases to 1.332" and they would work fine.   Enough background - on to the range.

This was the first time to the range with this rifle, so I only loaded a small number of rounds.  My primary goal was to safely test fire it and verify proper feeding.  Since I worked with the Lyman 515139 bullet to determine OAL length, this is what most of my rounds were loaded with.  Here is the load:

Cut down Starline .50-70 brass
Lyman 515139 bullet, about 20-1, SPG lube, sized .515"
45 gr by vol of Swiss 1.5F (49.3 gr by weight)
Federal large rifle primers
Powder poured though 24" drop tube
One .030" veg card wad, one newspaper wad.
Load compressed .100"
Bullet seated to 1.680" and lightly crimped.  A light film of grease was applied to the bullet's nose to aid in feeding.

I fired three 5 shot groups at 50 yards from a rest.  All three groups consistently went 5" – 6".  Not very good.  I was using the original military sights and my 55 year old eyes aren't what they used to be.  So I wondered if it was me or the rifle.  Almost as an afterthought, I had loaded 5 additional rounds with the Rapine 350T bullet, same alloy, size and lube.  Everything else was the same as the 515139 load.  My primary intention was just to check feeding using this bullet.   I loaded all 5 in the magazine and they cycled up just fine.  So I fired them at the same 50 yard distance.  I was greatly surprised and pleased to see them go into a much better group, about 2.5".  Nothing to get too excited about, but a big improvement over the 515139 bullet.


 

So I will focus my future loading with the Rapine bullet and see if I can tighten up this group a little more. 

[dusty texian]

ndnchf" that is a very good report ,Look's like the old,Springfield Spencer, has new life breathed into it. Look's like she's gonna be a shooter. How was it to shoot ,trigger pull/,mild report ? ,,,,,,Dusty

[ndnchf]

The trigger pull was typical military,crisp but heavy. I had previously removed the lock to clean, inspect and lube it.  So it works as designed. The load has a good bark to it.  Recoil is noticeable, but not unpleasant. Nearly 50gr of Swiss and a 350 bullet is nothing to sneeze at. But its a heavy rifle and felt recoil is quite moderate.  Sighting was a question I had, since it uses unaltered .50-70 M1868 trapdoor sights. I used the rear sight folded down with the top of the front sight even with the top plane of the rear sight (modern sighting alignment), it shot about 6" high at 50 yards. Placing the top of the front sight level with the lower notch plane (19th century sight alignment) it shot about 1" high at 50 yards. All shots were about 1.5" - 2". To the right of center.     

[Herbert]

One thing I have noticed with rifles that have not been used in !00 years is that they need shooting in again to get the right wip back in the barrel,dont be suprised if the point of aim changes and the groups tighten up with use.Have you tryed LPP with a under primer wad,this works for me to tighten groups up a bit, also what lube are you useing

[ndnchf]

I hope to give the the old boy a gentle work out and losen him up a bit.  I have not used an under primer wad, not sure what LPP is

[PvtGreg]

ndncf - how does the short blade-spring loaded ejector work?

Thanks

[Herbert]

I hope to give the the old boy a gentle work out and losen him up a bit.  I have not used an under primer wad, not sure what LPP is

LPP = large pistol primer

[ndnchf]

PvtGreg- extraction/ejection has been excellent, no problems at all. Simply reducing the .50-70 rim diameter to around .645" and beveling the rear edge is all it takes.

Herbert - duh, sometimes the obvious escapes me.  No I have not tried LPP, so far using Federal LR primers. 

[Herbert]

ndncf - how does the short blade-spring loaded ejector work?

Thanks

The Springfield Spencer rifle uses the Burncide 1856 carbine action as a action so it uses the long blade spring asist extractor,however the short blade spring asist extractor for the NM works very well, as well as elimanating the weakness of the cutt-away at the side of the chamber for the long blade extractot(a big weeknes in the Spencer desighn) it still retains the inatial caming extraction of the cartridge of the long blade extractor without cutting meatal from the suport side of the chamber ,in my view it by far the best of the Spencer extractors that were comnly produced

[ndnchf]

So far I have 30 rounds of Starline .50-70 brass converted to use in my Spencer.  Last night I loaded three 10 round batches to try out.

1 - Loaded with 45 gr volume of Goex FG, Rapine 350 bullet
2 - Loaded with 45 gr volume of Goex FFG, Rapine 350 bullet
3 - Loaded with 45 gr volume of Pyrodex RS, Rapine 350 bullet

I added a .030" vegi card wad and compressed the powder enough to seat the bullet.  Then added 2 newspaper wads and seated the bullet to an OAL of 1.682-1.684" with a light crimp.  All other parameter the same as the previous load.

Since the Rapine bullet looks so promising in my Spencer which uses a model 1868 trapdoor barrel, as a side experiment I loaded up 10 rounds of .50-70 using the Rapine bullet and 68gr by volume of Goex to try out in my Model 1868 trapdoor. It will be interesting to see how they compare.

I hope to get to the range later this week and try them out. 

[ndnchf]

It was such a nice day here in Virginia that I loaded up my shooting gear last night and went to the range today after work.  I was anxious to try out the three loads listed previously.  I loaded 10 rounds of each load and fired two five shot groups of each load at 50 yards from a rest.  Here are the results:

The first load fired was the Pyrodex RS.  It was OK, but not great.  This is the better of the two groups, just over 3".


I pulled a boresnake through it once, then went to the next load, the Goex FG.  It was disappointing, both groups ran about 5.5" – 6".  At this point I was starting to blame the military sights and my eyes, thinking I just wasn't holding it steady.


After this, I pulled a boresnake through again and sat down with the last load, Goex 2F.  To my surprise, the first 5 shots went into 1.25".


I had to see if this was a fluke, so I fired the last 5 rounds of the same load.  This group measured a little under 1.25"!


Of the three loads I tried, the Goex 2F was the one I thought least likely to be successful.  Just goes to show that each rifle is different and you have to find what it likes.  The Swiss 1.5F load used in the previous outing showed promise as well.  The next time I may load the Goex 2F and the Swiss 1.5 again and see if I can repeat this performance.  If so, I want to back it out to 100 yards and see what it will do.  But I think this is quite good performance for a nearly 150 year old military rifle.  I don't think I can get much better with my eyes and these sights.  How does this compare to what you guys are shooting?     

[Herbert]

Very good ,starting to show you what it can do,I also have found FF to be the best powder for the 56-50

[Arizona Trooper]

Those groups are looking great! It's too bad that GOEX doesn't make CTG anymore. It works very well in most Spencers. That said, it's hard to argue with your results using FF.

I don't like to use pistol primers in Spencers. They are too sensitive for the tube magazine. Lots of people do though.

Since you are in Va., are you coming to the N-SSA National next month? If so, I will be working the bridge from sutlers to the range. Stop by and say Hi! 

[ndnchf]

I forgot to mention that I also took my Model 1868 trapdoor to the range and fired 15 rounds of .50-70 loaded with the same Rapine 350 bullet.  Since the Spencer uses the same Model 1868 barrel, I wanted to see how it would perform.  I didn't take a photo of the target, but the first 9 or 10 shots went about 3-4 " right of center and into maybe a 4"- 5" group.  But then something unusual happened.  The next shot went right to point of aim at 6' O'clock, right on in windage.  So I fired 4 more rounds and they all went into a decent group, about 2-5/8".  Herbert, it's like you mentioned - the barrel seemed to shake out its kinks and started shooting straight.  Here is the target.  The shot at far right was one of the first, others went off the paper to the right.  At 6 O'clock are the last 5 shots.  Not as good as the Spencer, but not too bad.



Arizona Trooper - I still have a pound or two of Goex Cartridge grade and may try it in the .56-50.  But shooting well with the commonly available Goex 2F is a big plus.  I don't shoot N-SSA, just have too many irons in the fire. But I have been up there for the Nats a few times to watch and shop the gun parts vendors.  Not sure if I'll make it or not at this point.  But thanks for the invite.

[ndnchf]

I got back out to the range yesterday and tried three more loads.  1. Swiss 2F with a .030" card wad and 2 newspaper wads, 2. Swiss 2F with no wads and 3. Goex 2F with no wads.  All other things being the same as before.  Of these, the Goex 2F, 43gr by weight was the best.  Not surprising based on my previous results.  This rifle really likes Goex 2F.  Here is the best group:



This was six shots, the first being a fouling shot that went higher than the others.  The other 5 shots went into about 1-3/4" at 50 yards.  Compare this to my previous load of Goex 2F.  The loads are the same except this load used no wads, while the previous Goex 2F load used a .030" card wad and 2 newspaper wads.  I wanted to see how much of a difference the wads made.  This load is about as close to the original load as I can get.  It shoots very well and has a nice crack to it.  Realistically, this is probably about as good as I'm going to do with this rifle.  With my aging eyes, military sights and trigger pull, I'm pretty pleased with it.  I think I'll stiick with the Goex 2F.  Next time out I'll move to 100 yards and see how it does.

[matt45]

  Hoo aughh!

[Mossyrock]

What are you using for bullet alloy and lube?

[ndnchf]

Alloy is wheel weights with tin added for around 20-1. lube is SPG.

[Herbert]

Have you checked the velocity,I did a quick check for maximum stability of the Rapine 350 T bullet for your rifle and came up with 1080fps,with your load I expect you are very close to this velocity.I have found matching bullet lenth,twist rate and groove diameter can get you shooting well very quickly and save a lot of powder and lead

[ndnchf]

I don't have a chrono, so don't know the velocity.  But I seem to have found a good load for it with out too much difficulty. The last time out a friend came along.  He was shooting a .50-70 M1866 trapdoor.  He commented that my loads had a distinctive crack to them. I wish I knew their velocity.