Question, Are Short Stroked Rifles NCOWS Legal.

[Major Matt Lewis]

So, what about plastic eye protection and molded ear protection?  They were not around back then so if we extrapalate what you say St. George, than we loose them too.  Granted, both are safety devices, but they are also accoutraments, are they not?  What Trooper at the Little Big Horn had molded ear plugs and safety glasses?  But we use them anyway....

I don't reckon they had shot timers back before 1899 either.  Let's do a way with them too...How about also requiring that we can only shoot ammo that has turned green with unmaintained weapons as well.  

You are also incorrect about the Henry Big Boy and how SASS approved it. The Territorial Govenors approved the Big Boy.  They are our Posse Representatives.  The same as the NCOWS Posse Reps.  I do know that all three SASS clubs that I am affiliated polled it's members prior to voting.  

I strongly recommend spending some time shooting matches to all who don't.  (Now this is just me), but I feel that shooters have a better understanding of issues that effect the shooting portion of NCOWS.  Also, St. George, I also recommend spending sometime shooting at SASS also.  I know you like to comment on "the other CAS outfit" often in your references.  Once again, commenting on something as an outsider, lacks the credence of commenting on something as one who has an understanding.  You are a great person to ask historically oriented questions and even eloquent in your defense of your shooting views but at the end of the day, you are speaking in hypothetics.  Application is a very different thing.  We all know that.  Pull some triggers, get off the sidelines and get in the game.  The view can be quite different.

By the way, Joss tells me you said hello

[Major Matt Lewis]

Courtesy of Lars,

6-2. No modern (post 1899) firearms will be allowed unless they are authentic reproductions of traditional firearms or very markedly resemble traditional firearms

[Grizzle Bear]

Major Matt:

I don't have the rules in front of me at the moment (shame on me!) but modern eye and ear protection is specifically exempted from authenticity requirements. 

Grizzle Bear

P.S. I am trying to find a 30 and 60 second sand glass to time shoots!

[Major Matt Lewis]

Griz,

You think you could have them by Thursday for the GAF Muster?  Opps sorry, somebody does not like me talking about an NCOWS sactioned event where NCOWS is a paying sponser on the NCOWS board....

Griz,

I am sure you are correct about the rule book, but the vehicle to allow the Short Stroke is also already in the rule book as Lars has pointed out.  I say leave it as is and let this issue go away.

[St. George]

I can see that my comment about personal attacks falls on deaf ears.

Too bad, so sad.

And I had such high hopes...

Whether or not a man 'chooses' to 'compete' is irrelevant and it's been discussed before.
It's most definitely 'not' a requirement for NCOWS' membership.

If you feel that you need to do so in order to satisfy some hyper-competitive need within you - please - by all means - do so.
Many others don't feel the same way.

Continual attempts to goad - well - that's just... small...
As are named references to personal communications from other members and Moderators - along with a sly 'wink'...

In the meantime - you go right on needlin' folks - it's what you're good at.

As to safety glasses and hearing protection - it's always been stressed that those are what's needed on and around the firing line - regardless of what it may look like - so that's a specious argument.

As to timers - some clubs use them - some don't.
The Posse decides on that aspect of it.

Your arguments about ammunition - well - I just don't have any idea what you're trying to argue, there.

Troopers of the time did realize that corrosion was a problem - copper and leather tanning chemicals 'do' combine to form verdigris, after all - but that wasn't what happened at The Little Big Horn - it was the soft copper-cased round that would stick in an over-heated action that made extraction difficult.

As to the Big Boy - it 'was' voted on - in a way - and SASS' leadership over-rode it.
Were the archives still extant at 'The Frontier Spot' and if they were archived - you could better follow the progress of that escapade.



Scouts Out!

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Major Matt,
I think it is absolutely amazing that you would make a comment about outsiders except when you agree with them. At least St. George is a member of NCOWS. I know that he doesn't need me to defend him but I'll bet in his real job he has pulled more triggers then you or I combined and I've done a lot of shooting in my day. get in the game....man....I've heard all now..

I know you like to comment on "the other CAS outfit" often in your references.  Once again, commenting on something as an outsider, lacks the credence of commenting on something as one who has an understanding.  You are a great person to ask historically oriented questions and even eloquent in your defense of your shooting views but at the end of the day, you are speaking in hypothetics.  Application is a very different thing.  We all know that.  Pull some triggers, get off the sidelines and get in the game.  The view can be quite different.

OCB

[RRio]

So, what about plastic eye protection and molded ear protection?  They were not around back then so if we extrapalate what you say St. George, than we loose them too.  Granted, both are safety devices, but they are also accoutraments, are they not?  What Trooper at the Little Big Horn had molded ear plugs and safety glasses?  But we use them anyway....

I don't reckon they had shot timers back before 1899 either.  Let's do a way with them too...How about also requiring that we can only shoot ammo that has turned green with unmaintained weapons as well.  

You are comparing apples to oranges.

Eye + Ear protection = Your safety

Short stroke kits = some degree (however small it may be) of competive advantage

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Rawhide, St. George and all,
This is my last comment on this post. They just don't get it. They've been blinded by the changes that have ocurred in SASS that it's OK with them if it happens in NCOWS. Do I shoot both organizations? Yes thats my right to do so and I don't need any body on this forum to tell me when, where and how much to shoot to have insight to see the direction NCOWS is going if we don't stop it now.

All in all, I thought this was a very enlightening post, but, it's gotten to the point where we are just rehashing the same old crap over and over, and I do wish Joss or I Will Ketchum would lock it up.

If SS kits comes up for a vote at this years congress, and NCOWS does vote to retain the SS kits thats fine, I will remain a member and not use some lame excuse not to join or quit just because I didn't like the outcome or got my feelings hurt. On the other hand if our powers that be have the guts and determination to correct the ambiguities in our by-laws and outlaw the types of modifications we are talking about here then great. If not, it won't be long that we will be looking at short stroked revolvers in NCOWS.....SASS already has them.....just my last rant on this post.....

OCB

[Major Matt Lewis]

St. George,

If you want to take what I said as a personal attack, instead of looking inward, to quote Doc Holiday from Tombstone..."You're a Daisy if ya do."  If you told somebody they should do more research on a subject before they fully form an opinion, that is far from personal.

Rio,

To a point it is apples and oranges.  But it's an illustration of something taken to the extreme.  To quote the saloon philosopher Al Swearengin "Moderation in all things."

Bill,

You see non-members as outsiders.  I see them as potential members.  See the difference?  Also, I couldn't care about anybodies real job.  I design secure wireless networks, secure to the point that I have done more good for this nation in my current job than I or most ever did as a single solitary Marine, Soldier, Airman or Sailor (Not comparing myself or what I do to the Audie Murphys, Chesty Pullers or Sgt Yorks of our history).  Big Whoop!  As you know, it is a completely different world when you are standing at the firing line and the buzzer goes off in this GAME.

To not play The GAME and make commentary on the sidelines, regardless of who it is, is no different that the political pundants like Rush Limbaugh, Al Frankin, Bill O'Reilly or Allan Combs.  They all can sit on the sidelines praise or condem, but they refuse to get in The GAME.  They are just talking heads.  At times they make good points, but at the end of the day, they refuse to get in the GAME.

[Derby Younger]

Bill:

Go to your original post.
1. Select Modify
2. Select Options
3. Select Lock This Thread.

You're welcome.

Derby

[Lars]

If SS kits comes up for a vote at this years congress, and NCOWS does vote to retain the SS kits thats fine,...... On the other hand if our powers that be have the guts and determination to correct the ambiguities in our by-laws and outlaw the types of modifications we are talking about here then great. If not, it won't be long that we will be looking at short stroked revolvers in NCOWS....

This has been an interesting thread for me too!  I have absolutely no interest in shooting any toggle-link rifle, so that aspect of this thread will have no effect on me. For me all the toggle-link rifles are so slow and clumsy that they make a distinct decrease in my shooting abilities. I am looking for a nice slick Marlin.

I do strongly hope that if NCOWS makes any additional ruling, removal of ambiguities from by-laws, etc. that they do it in an objective manner that can be applied to the EFFECT, if any, of the modification on an individual shooter's performance. (NCOWS rule makers are already plenty focused on matters of appearance.)  Simply banning something called "short stroking" is way too arbitrary, given the wide varieties and effects of such modification, as well as the growing number of ways to do such modifications. Perhaps lever arc, hammer arc, etc. is a better criteria (given all the caveats and vagaraties that entails!!).

I also consider that the effects of such modifications for the average shooter are not going to much improve that shooter's score. That is so influenced by skill level and physical abilities, practice, gun fit and balance, suitable sights, ease of shooting a specific gun, etc. as to make the marginal effect of the modification just that, marginal. I can see and have personally benifited from modifications that result in easier use of a gun, compensating for physical limitations.

As regards one SS-specialist, as I recall, folks initially prized his modifications of toggle-link rifles for their ease of operation, NOT because of their "short strokes". Certainly, my slicked up Rossi and various slicked up Marlins I have used allowed me to shoot accurately faster simply because my aim was disturbed less by the easier levering. For me that was about 5 seconds per stage for a middle of the pack shooter.

Lars

[Major Matt Lewis]

Lars,

Just wondering, why don't you like toggle links? 

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Derby,
I already tried that, Under additional optiions, there is no option named "lock this thread". I think the moderator is the one that has control over that function.

Thanks,

OCB

[Lars]

Major Lewis,

Some years ago I shot or handled ALL the different versions of Henry's, 1866's, 1873's and found ALL of them to be stocked and balanced so far from what works for me that I simply could not shoot them anywhere nearly as well as slicked-up M92s or Marlins. The "short-rifles" came closest to being acceptable but even they handled so poorly as to not be acceptable for either quick first shots or follow-up shots. They easily cost me 10+ seconds additional time per stage, and that was before even more physical problems arrived. Even more important to me, I simply do not enjoy shooting guns that do not handle easily and accurately.

I am speaking as a lifelong wingshooter that insists on well balanced and properly stocked (for the specific shooter) doubles or O/Us. I hold my hunting rifles to the same standard. This means that all but some of the stocks on the old lever rifles have to be modified for my use, as well as the balance of the rifle.

There is also the issue of ability to handle higher pressure loads, such as 44-40 loads giving 1600-2000 fps. NONE of the cartridge guns I use for CAS/WAS are solely for that purpose. The shotguns are my bird guns -- no coach guns or 97s for me. The Rugers are also trail guns. It was intended that the Rossi would be a hunting rifle also -- just has not happened yet.

Lars

[Major Matt Lewis]

I have a Marlin 1894 C that I got slicked up for the wife, and have only put 10 rounds through it.  What rifle are you bringing to the Muster?  If it is a 92, you mind at some point if I put a couple rounds through it.  I have not shot one of those before.

[Lars]

Be happy to let you shoot a few rounds of quite authentic BP rounds (Republic Metallic Cartridge) through my Rossi 92 44-40 carbine. It was slicked up by Steve Young and has tang and Marlin front brass bead sights. It also has over an inch of stock extension stuffed into a lace-on recoil pad (just have not gotten around to making a permenent extension). There is enough lead in the end of the mag tube to get rid of the muzzle lightness of the gun.

Lars

[Major Matt Lewis]

Sounds sweet.  Does it clutch up on you?  I am starting to get to the point where I have out cycled my rifle a couple of times.  It was an awkward feeling to say the least. 

[Lars]

Like with all the slicked up lever guns I have used, it needs smooth, full strokes. Otherwise it can do a couple of unwanted things. Ammo does make a real difference, of course. With "original" 44-40 bullets (that is, Lyman 427098) I have never been able to cycle it too fast for reliable feeding -- however, I never had super fast reflexes and they have not gotten faster in the past 60++ years.

Larws

[Lone Gunman]

I reckon several of us will be departing for the GAF Muster soon. I trust that those who are left behind will keep the bridges burning brightly until our return      If all goes well we should have some pseudo-scientific research to share upon the return.

So Ida, adios,

[Wymore Wrangler]

I can't wait to see you findings that you told me about the other night....