Question, Are Short Stroked Rifles NCOWS Legal.

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Marshal'ette,
It's nice to have a pretty face post over here on the NCOWS forum once in a while, windy or not. Jeez..I hope that didn't sound too chauvinistic....

OCB

Chauvinistic? I dunno. Offensive to any other woman who has posted in the NCOWS forum? Oh, yeah, you betcha. Great people skills there, OCB.


AnnieLee

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Thank you, Joss, but I wasn't fishing for a compliment.



AnnieLee

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Annie Lee,
Joss is right. I don't know you, or what you look like, and as far as I know the Marshalette, is the first of the fairer sex to use her actual picture in her avatar while posting in the NCOWS forum. As far as my people skills are concerned, I'm not here to preach the sermon on the mount to anyone, just express my opinions and try not to make it personal in an open forum. If you had a problem with my post you should have sent me a personal message and not made it public since I didn't address you specifically. I think the topic here is on short stroke rifles and not what you perceive to be the quality of, or lack of my people skills.......But thank you anyway for pointing that out.........

OCB

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Joss,
Aanishna' Apiijig'we Nishin

Will do!

Bill

[Cuts Crooked]

The Marshal and Marshalette bring up some very good points! Although not on the subject of of short strokes, I've recently learned that at least one ammo company has started offering reduced loads in black powder cartridges. (some of you may be aware that this is major burr under my saddle ) This  is without doubt a direct result of recent events in the CAS shooting world and an attempt by big business to capitalize on a perceived advantage in competition. And when commercial enterprizes get involved in such thigs it's hard to rein things back in. Witness the speed floor that disappeared from the other major CAS venues rules....a direct result of ammo companies pressure on that venue.

Perhaps, if NCOWS is really interested in stopping the equipment race, it's time to look at the possibility of "sundowning" the short stroke gunz? (much like the ruling on belt slides....give a date in the future at which point they no longer be allowed to be used in NCOWS matches) This would give the owners/users of such guns time to replace them or return them to stock configuration. This would also give the industry notice that there is no point in pursuing such things, at least insofar as the NCOWS buyers are concerned.

BTW, I too have noticed the differing reactions of non CAS participants upon watching shows about the game. I was involved in the making of a short peice for public television, with The Fort Des Moines Rangers, a couple of years back. It was a local shoot and when it aired on TV I got a LOT of inquiries about "when/where/how?" But the films showing the "top gunz" only seem to bring out comments like "no way I could do that"!

[gw]

I've found this to be a very interesting and enlightning discussion to date, I guess to me it comes down to only one question:  If it ain't authentic to the period, why would an NCOWS member want to do it?  If we start down this slippery slope, can the self cocking short-stroked Spencer be far behind??? (Guess that's 2 questions, sorry!)  As far as I can tell, the onyl REAL difference between us and SASS is the quest to be authentic, maybe my interpretation of the NCOWS mission statement is a little off based but I thought we were all trying to be correct to the period. I honestly don't give one whit if the guy next to me is shooting the most tricked out Uberti, Ruger or whatever, I'm not in this game for that reason. When we start losing one of the original principles this group was founded on, ie authenticity, I start to get a bit of a queasy feeling in my gut. If you're not in this to be authentic, I've got to wonder why you joined NCOWS instead of just going to another SASS match. I certainly am not authentic in every respect but am trying to improve when I can. Just can't see why we would want to go the opposite direction when it's much cheaper and more correct not to. 'Nuf said!

                                                                  GW

[St. George]

Though a vocal minority seem to be seeking the 'SASSification' of NCOWS and pay but lip service to period attire and the like - the PMs I get are still overwhelmingly pro-period dress and equipment.

That's the reason that 'they' joined the organization.

Some came from SASS - some from the Civil War/Indian War reenactors and some from the Buckskinners.
All were/and continue to be - ardent students of History and appreciate NCOWS for it's stance with regard to that compelling aspect of it.

If they 'want' to shoot fast - there are more clubs out there for them to do so - but they don't.

It's been said that SASS is a shooting organization that has a social side, and NCOWS is a social organization that shoots.

There's a lot of truth to that.

Short-stroke kits, shotgun slides, flared holster tops and ultra-low loads are all what they are - SASS-inspired devices designed for gaining a 'mechanical' advantage over one's fellows.
They can attempt to be 'justified' by some pretty articulate folks - but the fact remains...

Watching one of the 'Top Shooters' from SASS on television is 'exactly' like watching the old 'Walk and Draw' Fast-Draw contests of my youth - 'vaguely' interesting - essentially useless and not worth the practice time.
However - watching something slower-paced like the NCOWS segment garners both interest and enthusiasm amongst all age groups.

Probably have to blame Clint Eastwood's 'Unforgiven' for the return to an 'authentic' Western, and Tom Selleck's and Kevin Costner's various enhancement of same, for the public's acceptance of that.
They're what folks have seen and have enjoyed and so - they identify more with that 'type' than they do the old B-Movie stuff.
For 'them' - it's 'how it was' during the time and - director's idiocyncracies aside - the 'new' stuff is far better and far more faithful to those long-gone times.

Cleaning up the burrs and machine marks, and putting in harder screws to replace some of the soft ones is one thing.
The result is a weapon whose internal workings replicate what the shooter would've bought at the time, thanks to the innate craftsmanship involved in building pretty much 'everything' back then.
Installing 'kits' and buying like-oriented gear is quite another.

With the demise of the shotgun slide - the idea of a 'sunset' on certain 'overly-competitive' gear is a workable one - at least for NCOWS.

Many folks shoot in both camps - and that's great.

Save the tricked-out, expensive action jobs and other comp gear for those days that you shoot 'IPSC with Hats' and use the living hell out of it and enjoy yourself doing so.

But - when it's an NCOWS shoot - pull out your 'real' Old West gear- the period stuff you read about and hunted for and were helped with - and immerse yourself into a much quieter and more 'civilized' time - shoot some, and talk some and learn some from everyone there.

The experiences are 'similar' - but 'different' and there's more of an honest friendliness that's visible at anything NCOWS is involved with.

If these devices are truly going to be a 'problem' and not merely the 'stuff of conversation', Devil's Advocacy and Dead Horse beating' - then remember - the Congress meets in KC in November.

Get to talking within your Posse and putting your concerns down and tell the Reps, so they can discuss it as NCOWS sees it and not in a public forum like this one - where the casual reader only sees contention and dissention.

For many - KC is a very reasonable distance to drive to and if your dues are paid up - you can sit and watch and learn that developing 'Rules' for NCOWS is a 'lot' like the making of sausage...
But it's harder on your butt...

Good Luck to you all.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Though a vocal minority seem to be seeking the 'SASSification' of NCOWS and pay but lip service to period attire and the like - the PMs I get are still overwhelmingly pro-period dress and equipment.

That's the reason that 'they' joined the organization.

St. George, I don't see where folks are seeking the "SASSification' of NCOWS on this issue. What I am seeing are people who would prefer the research be done before anything is brought before the Territorial Congress.

Kaycee posted a pic of two '73s that I am going to repeat, here. His reproduction has a short stroke kit installed that gives it the same arc of lever throw as his original. As a result, it can be logically said that before the short stroke was installed, his reproduction '73 had a longer throw than that of an original. Installing the kit in his '73 actually makes it appear to be closer in accuracy to an original.

Short-stroke kits, shotgun slides, flared holster tops and ultra-low loads are all what they are - SASS-inspired devices designed for gaining a 'mechanical' advantage over one's fellows.

That may very well be true, but I would hazard that the majority of folks who have short stroke kits installed don't do it for any advantage over their fellow shooters, they do it because they like how it feels when they shoot the firearm.

Many folks shoot in both camps - and that's great.

Save the tricked-out, expensive action jobs and other comp gear for those days that you shoot 'IPSC with Hats' and use the living hell out of it and enjoy yourself doing so.

I would again pose that the vast majority of SASS shooters do not consider it to be "IPSC with Hats." Perhaps the top 10% do, but the rest of us are in it for the fun and because we simply love to shoot. I think it is grossly unfair to the 90% of SASS shooters to lump them in under such a term. 

But - when it's an NCOWS shoot - pull out your 'real' Old West gear- the period stuff you read about and hunted for and were helped with - and immerse yourself into a much quieter and more 'civilized' time - shoot some, and talk some and learn some from everyone there.

The experiences are 'similar' - but 'different' and there's more of an honest friendliness that's visible at anything NCOWS is involved with.

Similar but different, aye, I can agree with that, and that is why I am interested in participating in an NCOWS shoot one day. But to say there's more of an honest friendliness at an NCOWS shoot compared to a SASS shoot? That implies that SASS shoots are dishonest and unfriendly. Tsk. How about leaving comparisons to SASS out of discussions about NCOWS?

If and when I ever shoot at an NCOWS event, it will be because I want to shoot an NCOWS event. Period. But if I am told that I will have to purchase an additional '73 because mine has a short stroke kit installed, even though the work done on mine gives me no competitive nor mechanical advantage, and even though my short stroke kit gives it a lever throw arc more in line with that of an original '73... I might take issue with that.

I sincerely hope this item is never placed before the Congress.

AnnieLee

[Derby Younger]

AnnieLee:

Excellent post.

Let me pose two questions to this forum. Given that an internal modification, SS, is banned: How will it be identified? How will it be enforced?

[gw]

I would suggest to all interested parties that reading Tex's column in the latest Chronicle will give some proper insight to this situation. If you already have a SS kit in your rifle, do whatever you think is right for you. If this matter does come before the Congress (agenda items are being solicited now), I believe it will be dealt with at the next scheduled (Nov. 19-20) meeting. Contact your Terr. rep. or Senator and let them know how you feel about this issue, and any other thing that you feel is of importance to NCOWS.

                                                                                                            GW

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

GW,
I read the article with interest yesterday and find it ironic that SASS is taking a hard look at where the direction of this sport has gone, even Tex, one of the original founders of SASS,  makes reference to the fact with all the modifactions they (SASS) allows it is headed for the IPSC style of shooting if not put in check, if it is not already there.
I also find it interesting that he mentioned coil springs and other mods that weren't done to 19th century firearms and his piece on how he had his percussion revolvers modified in such a way as to make them competitive, but felt guilty about doing it. It's probably to late to weed those kind of tihings out of SASS but I hope NCOWS still has a chance and the will to take that step.

OCB

[gw]

Bill, I referenced his article because of it's timeliness(just read it last night) and the point he makes about a new shooter's perception of the cost of "playing the game". If Tex is half as savvy as I think him to be, he's looking 5-10 years down the road at the future of SASS in general. Most young folks today cannot afford 4 guns just to shoot, let alone 4 guns with backups all tricked out to make them at least competetive at the larger shoots. NCOWS on the other hand, was wise enough to recognize this and came up with the working cowboy category requiring only 2 guns. I hope this isn't the last time that NCOWS can learn from SASS's mistakes.

                                                                                 GW

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

GW,
French Jack just now tried to call you at home about going to the Congress meeting next month, and no one picked up, you might give him a call when you can.

Bill

[Lars]

I no longer much believe what Tex writes. Below is a good example. Every time I have seen him shoot C&Bs they were Ruger Old Army's, which already have all the really effective "modifications" needed for reliable C&B shooting (on the other hand, Rogers and Spenser C&Bs had them during the USA Civil War!!). He was even shooting Clean Shot instead of a quality "traditional" BP (such as Swiss).

I also find it interesting that he mentioned coil springs and other mods that weren't done to 19th century firearms and his piece on how he had his percussion revolvers modified in such a way as to make them competitive, but felt guilty about doing it.

OCB

I am one that really does not think that SASS is serious about curbing the mass movement towards expensive "competitive" upgrades to modern copies (more or less) of the guns from the late 1800s. They never were, witness the use of Winchester 1897s based on a single movie.

I really think that NCOWS should proceed down a well researched and well reasoned path, with abundant attention to BROADENING the potential base of NCOWS members. Working Cowboy class is one excellent approach, perhaps allowing slightly modernized versions of late 1800s guns (eg. Marlins and Win M92 copies with safties, "modern" variation stocks on factory guns, ramp front sights, etc.) is another. Avoidance of going myoptic on the "hot buttons", like "short stroke" in favor of rational consideration of what, if anything, it really adds to the average shooter's abilities, seems essential to good decisions.

Lars

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Lars,
I may be wrong but the way I understood the article by Tex, he refers to revolvers of the SA type not originally equipt with coil springs and not frearms originally designed with them. I respectfully disagree with you as far as allowing modifications on firearms that were not OEM. Where do we stop? As far as research, are you talking about historical research to see if these mods were actually around during those times? Or, do you want to see if our membership wants them?
If its our membership you are talking about, then contact your Territorial Rep, and let him know how you feel. If historical research is what you are referring to, then by all means lets do it! But, personally, I don't think in all my reading I can recall reading about or a mentioning of a lever rifle in the 19th century being modified with a SS kit, tuned and slicked up, yes, there is plenty of that.
There is nothing in the Winchester books (I have six of them) to indicate it was ever a factory mod, and I've never seen it referred to in any other historical context such as a gunsmith in the 19th century doing such a modification.
So, if broadening the potential membership base of NCOWS means that we take the approach that SASS has in allowing these well thought out and reasoned modifications (?), then I personally don't want any part of it. If they don't give the shooter an advantage like some have stated here, then why do it in the first place?
I agree with a lot of what you say here, like the use of other then full loads of real black powder, or combo loads of fillers over black powder to reduce the recoil in large bore revolvers. Or, not using real black powder. I don't think they (NCOWS) should allow those either. It's easier then you think to solve this if you take the approach that if it was not used in our time period ( pre 1900), or, if it was not part of the original equipement on a firearm or other shooting item, then it shouldn't be accepted by our organization. It's just too simple........
One other comment, there was a reply to this post to the effect that if it doesn't hurt your fellow shooter (SS a rifle), then why worry about it? The problem I have with that is, I have a lot of respect for those old firearms and the people who (were a LOT smarter then me) manufactured them. Don't you think that if they thought it was an improvement in their rifle they would have made it that way in the first place? I sure do......

JMHO
OCB

[gw]

Lars, I think "ol Tex was making a "confession" of sorts and also wishing he could go back and change a few things that SASS has done(allowed).  I too believe that SASS will not change in this respect. That doesn't mean we can't learn from their mistakes. NCOWS will grow only if it sticks to it's founding priciples and doesn't get sidetracked by issues like this. We're the REAL Old West outfit, not them, and what I read from Tex proves it.

                                                                                                                GW

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Since replicas/reproduction long arms are allowed, which is more historically accurate, one with a longer lever arc than the original, or one that has an internal modification that gives it the equivalent arc of the original?

How do we know that the short stroke kits that don't involve welding do not more closely approximate the internal mechanisms of the originals than the mechanics of the reproductions?

AnnieLee

[Silver Creek Slim]

Last night while cleaning my Navy Arms 1875 Remingtons, one of the hammer springs snapped in two. If I understand the direction of this thread, it should be illegal to modify the pistol to except a coil spring, like a Ruger, that would be more durable than the original leaf spring?

Slim

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Silver Creek,
I don't know what the legality of that would be at this time in NCOWS, I think you should take Lone Gunman's advice and check the rules and bylaws as he has said several times here during this topic. I personally wouldn't do it until I checked (I wouldn't anyway), but it's your revolver??

Bill

[Cuts Crooked]

I know Tex slightly, and I know that Tex is a very flexable person when it comes to his shootin irons. He's one of those pards who is always tryin' new things, often jist to satisfy his curiosity So...yeah he probably shoots ROAs on occassion. But his usual irons are a mismatched pair, 73 Colt alongside a 60 Army.

SASS is what it is, and it's a lot of fun for many people, myself included, but I hope that NCOWS can find a way remain unique unto itself in the quest for more authenticity. The arms race looks to be nearly unstoppable in SASS (although I think I may undertake an attempt to do something in that regard. perhaps doomed to failure but I like a good challange) recent additions to permissable gunz on that front are a bit disappointing but simply part ofwhat that game is all about.

I still think it might be a good idea to look at the possibility of "sunsetting" the more radical mods in NCOWS