Question, Are Short Stroked Rifles NCOWS Legal.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Very interesting discussion. 

Slim

[Wymore Wrangler]

I seems to me that the NCOWS rule makers have a lot of research and documentation to do on this subject before making any change in the rules re "short stroking".

Lars
[/quote]

Amen brother Lars, Amen!!!!  As all changes should be...

[Major Matt Lewis]

Kudos to Lars, Cuts Crooked and St. George...

Way to hit them in their AUTHENTISITAH...(Think Cartman from South Park and that may be funny.)

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Lars,
I couldn't agree with you and Wymore more, but, show me where in any written factory records, records of any kind, photographs etc; that short stroking a rifle was done. Also, if I'm not mistaken Wymore, the authenticity committee doesn't have to show that a piece of equipement was used pre 1900 for it to be NCOWS legal, it's the person that wants to have it submitted that is required to show it was in existance. If in fact that is the way it is supposed to be, then short stroking a rifle is illegal as the rules are now and shouldn't be allowed in an NCOWS sanctioned match?
Lars& Wymore, I was under the impression that if an item couldn't be documented prior to 1900 then it couldn't be used in NCOWS, this I am not sure of as I am not up on all the internal goings on at the NCOWS headquarters. If this is not the case, then pity poor naive me...Do we have a headquarters? We need someone who is more knowledgable in the rules and regs then I am to chime in here on this....... I do hope this comes up for a vote this year as I understand one of our top officials in NCOWS shoots a rifle that has that modification to it, if so shame on you..............and......tsk..tsk...tsk

OCB

[Kaycee]

I will attach the picture of the original mfg in 1881 and the copy with the shot stroke installed, both are at full stroke.  I know that for some of you it would not matter what proof was exibited it would still be wrong.
Some of the posts on here really seem that unless you raise the hackles on some folks you just are not happy. And in your own perfect purist world there is nobody as perfect as you.

In the past couple of years it has seemed that there has been a small group pushing for a total revamp of NCOWS to make it a old west version of NSSA. If every item used has to be documented them how long are you going to allow stainless hardware and knife blades, borebutter, Balistol, gold electroplated watch chains, synthetic stiching in leather work?

Maby everone should take a step back a deep breath and ask themselves what does NCOWS really mean to them? No two replies will be alike just like no two outfits will be at the same level. And no two pieces of equipment will operate with the same specs.  Performing internal changes to a firearm to make it more efficient, removing endshake ,timing adjustment, spring pressures, lever throw. none of these will make anyone a better shooter. It might increase their confidence in their equipment, make them want to PRACTICE more and therefore increse their proficiency. But those changes are within the shooter not the equipment.

Life is too damn short to waste it peeing on everyones roses. I just hope you all can figure out what direction you want to go before the sand is all gone from the hourglass.

KC

[Books OToole]

What is NSSA?

Books

[Derby Younger]

Kaycee:

That appears to be one fine Winchester. I would appreciate seeing a full size picture. PM or post.

Thanks,

Derby

[Books OToole]

Oh.

Do they have authenticity police?

Books

[Major Matt Lewis]

Great Pictures KC,

So it seems that the Short Stroke actually makes the rifle more historically accurate.  Also let me point out that NCOWS allows Marlins with Crossbolt safeties.  Hardly Period Correct.

I agree that the E-Committee would spend it's time here in Kansas City looking at ways of growing the organization rather than over litigating the game.  Oh, buy the way, it IS A GAME.

[Major Matt Lewis]

Joss,

To answer your question, I have my main competition rifle short stroked to what I would say is the exact lenght as KC's picture.  For me, (I have large hands) it allows me to cycle my rifle without moving my thumb, which I anchor to the side of my rifle.  The biggest benefit from Cody working on it is the absolute smoothness of the action.  I have another rifle that has an "Ultra Short Stroke" in it.  It is a back up because although the lever is a shorter stroke, the force required to operate it is greater so the actions are jerkier and it does not "feel" as smooth, and we all know that "smooth is fast." 

But it does come down to shooter preference, the way it should be. 

[Wymore Wrangler]

I agree with Kaycee, life is to short, heck let's just go shoot and have fun, isn't that why we do this....

[Lars]

Lars,
.................. it's the person that wants to have it submitted that is required to show it was in existance. If in fact that is the way it is supposed to be, then short stroking a rifle is illegal as the rules are now and shouldn't be allowed in an NCOWS sanctioned match?
Lars& Wymore, I was under the impression that if an item couldn't be documented prior to 1900 then it couldn't be used in NCOWS,
...................

OCB

OCB,

As already noted by other posters, following the above to the logical end will leave VERY FEW still extant options for the NCOWS shooter. The list of currently acceptable firearms, cartridges, design of cartridge cases, powders, types of bullets, bullet alloys, woods, etc. used in stocks and grips, dyes in clothing, materials in cloth, modern steels used in guns, safety features, coil springs, etc. etc. etc. would have to be so drastically culled and would become quite short. So would the NCOWS membership list.

We all agree that some balance must be struck, if for no other reason, to maintain the vitality of the organization. While it is obvious that you started this thread in jest, it is also obvious that this topic is a "hot button", both specifically and generally.

By its very nature, an attempt to recreate the past using extant and modern items, materials, etc. is a compromise between what was and what can be. Perfection in the full meaning of the word seems elusive at best, more likely impossible.

While I had nothing to do with the current list of approved/unapproved, it is easy for me to critique it based on my own sense of logic and practicality. Some things I heartily agree with, some look really inconsistant (at least to me, today). If I imagine an expanded list that nixed the badly maligned and apparently poorly understood use of shortstroking on a copy of an original design (but not the original design? Do I understand this point correctly?) then I have one more item in my "really inconsistant" list.

Lars

[St. George]

Just for the record - 'N-SSA' stands for 'North-South Skirmish Association' - the 'parent' Civil War reenactor society.

They have rules and regulations and there are 'some' units that are truly accurate - down to the stitch count in the cloth.
You see this in some of the 'hardcore' Southern units.

For an example of this - look for a copy of  'Confederates in the Attic' - by Tony Horowitz.

In it - he follows one of those ultra hard-core units, and participates in their world.

It's interesting - to say the least.

No matter 'what' you may think of the trend towards more historical accuracy in NCOWS - and how onerous it may be  - you ain't seen nuthin' like these boys...

Scouts Out!

[French Jack]

There are some valid points made here on this discussion.  As I previously mentioned, I have seen SS jobs done that did not significantly alter the lever throw on the rifles.  These retained approximately the 90 degree from the receiver arc.  I have also seen the other cases, as Major Matt admits to owning, which have a GREATLY reduced lever travel-- the full throw is approximately 60 degrees from the receiver.  This is Not an insignificant differece.  My position is that if it does not significantly alter the travel, then it is not a problem.  If it Does, it does constitute an external mod, simply because it is easily visible as far as you can see the lever.  What amount of change are we willing to accept?  does it have to resemble the original, or can I have a lever that travels a distance of half or less of the originals?  When is enough, enough? 

All arguments aside as to what makes a better shooter, the plain fact is that If it were not a competitive advantage, persons would not spend the extra money to have it done.  This has been thrashed out quite completely on TOB, and all the parties involved whether pro or con are in agreement on this point.  To me , this is immaterial, as I refuse to enter the equipment race to be more competitive.  However, it does need to be noted as the underlying reason for the modification.

What if I modify mine to utilize a rack and pinion a'la Browning, and end up with a lever travel of two inches?  To use the quoted logic, if it doesn't involve change to the outside, it would be legal.  This may seem an extreme thought, but what if? 

Give it some honest, unbiased thought, and make your voices known as to where to draw the line.  That's why we vote.  Use your vote.

[Cuts Crooked]

Derby,

Left click on the pic and you will get to see it full sized.

Kaycee,

Thanx fer posting that pic! It shows prezactly wat I wuz talkin' about in my earlier post. Now, if someone should place both those guns in front of an authenticity commitee, how they gonna rule?

[Lone Gunman]

Let's see if I can cram 10 pounds of stuff into a 5 pound post:

Mr Haney is the consummate snake oil salesman. Keeping in mind that I have no first hand experience with 'strokers' it is my opinion that they are 'snake oil'. A missed target in NCOWS is a 10 second penalty. The time saved by moving the lever a tiny bit less with each shot could never recover enough to counteract even one miss. (of course in SASS with a 5 second penalty your odds would be twice as good.) At best it might give an advantage over someone else using the same rifle, but not necessarily to someone using a Marlin which already has a shorter stroke, or a Lightning rifle. I would bet on Steve Paulson with his original 32-20 Lightning against anyone shooting any sort of lever action rifle.

"If they didn't give an advantage people wouldn't be buying them"  Folks I've been a salesman all my life, trust me on this, that's NOT the way it works. If it did there wouldn't be lines at the lottery counter and Ron Popeil wouldn't be a millionaire.

"All things being equal", all things are NEVER equal.

"Internal vs External modifications".  The single greatest improvement we could make in our online discussions of NCOWS rules is to actually refer to NCOWS rules during the discussions. The 'internal/external mod' rule is a SASS rule, not NCOWS. Everyone who posts on these forums has a computer, our rules are readily available at http://www.ncows.org/Bylaws.htm  Interlacing SASS rules in NCOWS discussions just confuses the dog poop out of folks...please don't do it.

The Territorial Congress, not the authenticity committee, is the only body that can make a determination on an items acceptance. The authenticity committee conducts reviews and makes recommendations to the Congress.  To the best of my knowledge our current Judge, Steve Caldwell, has not named an authenticity committee since taking office in February.

The November 19th & 20th meeting in Kansas City is not an E-committee meeting, it is a full fledged two day meeting of the Territorial Congress just like the one in Des Moines last November when we ratified the new bylaws. This is the meeting where these sorts of decisions are made, that's why they last two days (so folks can heal overnight and come back the next morning for round 2 ). The convention meetings are only a couple of hours or so and are now limited to things such as electing officers and lighter issues and/or very urgent business. Updating of the approved/unapproved lists will definitely be on the agenda for next month so, barring any unforeseen problems, this should get resolved then.

[Marshal Halloway]

Interesting discussion for sure. I want to add a few comments, but have in mind that I comment this based on a standpoint where I try to see these discussions from the outside and also as a veteran in the sport and as a newcomer.

In my promotional work, I talk about our sport to more non cas'ers than fellow shooters and I listen a lot to their comments.

This is not really just a discussion about short strokes and even about how we discuss these issues on a public forum. About the way we discuss, let me add this: we tend to forget sometimes that "guests" read more of the online debates than registered members. When we discuss on online forums, we are ambassadors of the sport and the organizations we want to represent. Always have that in mind.

I get more comments and questions from guests than members of this forum and other forums. For me, it is a valuable feedback because it gives me an understanding how outsiders think about our sport and the organizations and what it takes to get new members on board, whether it is SASS, NCOWS, W3G or just a local non affiliated club.

Short strokes is one of latest hot topics on the agenda when it comes to modifications and it won't be the last. It won't be the last because the gun industry and gunsmiths are working hard and determent to compete in the CAS market. And of course, competing is also about marketing and because of that and the money involved, promoting what some consider race guns becomes more highlighted than the sport itself. In fact, the industry has taken over the promotion of the sport and to some extent, the organizations have lost some of the control. It may be hard to admit that fact, but I have not found proof of the opposite.

In my opinion, SASS started the race and could not stop from day 1. With very liberal rules in the first place, it was easy for the members and the industry to put the pressure on and to push the boundaries of what could be accepted when it came to new guns and internal modifications.

In my opinion, NCOWS are now under the same kind of pressure, a pressure started by the industry and now the members. All this goes hand in hand. It is a consequence of professional marketing goals and we as members accept it for the most part.

One of the many questions is... how important it is to be strict on internal modification rules and/or how can we stop it? Is it too late already?

Will NCOWS as an organization with a goal to keep the sport more authentic when it comes to guns and costumes survive with the pressure we get from shooters who wants the latest in internal modifications?

Where are the borderlines and when and how can we technically say that enough is enough?

Now, we may think that the fast shooters on TV with subsonic thumbs on the revolver and a lever action that gives the impression it is a semi automatic is good for the recruitment. My research tells me it is not. It is quite the opposite.

I have watched episodes of Cowboys with people that haven't even heard about our sport and also studied their reactions and what they found interesting.

My notes and experience tells me that for the majority of the viewers, the fast shooters on TV is not a motivation to join. Seasoned shooters in other organizations are not motivated by that either because they look at it as just another IPSC sport.

However, the NCOWS episode in season 2 and episodes where we see regular shooters on TV with the same "slow" speed and errors as the average shooter, trigger more questions about where to join and how to join.
For me that is more important than short strokes and internal modifications.

Ok, you may think that I wondered off topic here, but in my opinion I haven't. You see, the important part of these kind of discussions is how the sport is prevailed. What is the impact if NCOWS allow a modification or not? Is it perhaps too late to discuss this because the industry have already set some standards through marketing and it is already accepted by the majority of the members? Will a late no to short stroke split the membership and hurt the organization?

Folks, I don't have all the answers, I just want to share some of my observations.

Personally, I don't see short strokes as a problem technically, because it will not really approve the average shooter's skills, in many cases, it will make them miss faster.

It is the psychological  effects these modifications have on the sport I am worried about. A lot of shooters think it will move them way up the score board. It won't, practice takes care of that, but..... potential new members think that they cannot afford all these extras that are marketed as a must to be in the sport. A gun out of the box is just not good enough anymore. The entry price to this sport is high enough as it is and is getting higher.

Have an interesting discussion with mutual respect for each others. You may disagree, but you are all on the same boat that has an engine controlled more by outside forces than the fine folks in the machine room.

Thanks for listening.

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

All arguments aside as to what makes a better shooter, the plain fact is that If it were not a competitive advantage, persons would not spend the extra money to have it done.  This has been thrashed out quite completely on TOB, and all the parties involved whether pro or con are in agreement on this point. 

Since I own a '73 with a short stroke, I can say the above is not a fact and all parties involved are not in agreement.

There is NO competitive advantage to my having a short stroke in my '73. I got one because I am used to shooting a Marlin.

I sincerely hope this item is never placed on an agenda before the Territorial Congress.

AnnieLee

[Marshal'ette Halloway]

Now I have read all of this and won't go into any technical or historical jargon.. not because I wouldn't love to impress you all with the fine and intelligent talk that you good ole' folks are exchanging.. but because..in this topic.. I really don't know the difference between s*** and apple butter.
But I do know this.

I am blessed with being married to the Marshal.. who gives me information all the time about all of the happenings and inside stuff that goes on within the CAS world.
But , since I am a total green horn on most of this... as everyone in my family and the group that we run with here in 'small town redneck America" is...
I can give an unbiased opinion on what newcomers really are looking at and feeling for the most part.

( I'll try not to be my normal windy self here~~ but I am making no promises.)

Since we have a group of people in this area, who are interested in CAS, we decided to have them over for a cookout and also to watch some assorted videos that Marshal had of CAS events.. some in America and some from Norway.
Now keep in mind that we here are just hunters and plinkers ..using all kinds of guns to have a good time with and keep ourselves amused..
What was amazing, was when we were watching all the shooters with the slicked up guns and the lightening fast speeds, there were some impressed whistles..and some impressed comments.
But when he played the video's of the shoots where there were the ones that used common guns and were laughing and shooting their best, but still not too worried about the time clock or the "impression" that they were making.. the whole energy and feeling  took a  different turn in the room.
THEN.. we started hearing talk about getting something started around here.. how fun it would be...and comments like..."if it is like THAT~~ I would feel comfortable shooting."
My point is... Sometimes the real fast shooters who make it a point of using all the "new tricks" to get  the advantage to win and be the "fastest".. I think deters an intimidates new shooters who are considering getting into the sport for the fun and friendship of the game.

((let me finish here))

I am as competitive as the next, and I think the desire to do your best should always be practiced..
But what I am worried about is that the size of the wallet is going to control who the new future member of NCOWS and other organizations  will be.

But I also think that the internal modifications of the guns should be kept strict so that everyone is playing on the same level.
Or at least thinking that they are competing on the same level.
We all know that practise is really what makes a good shooter.
And the personality is what makes the sport fun.

Just wanted to get the opinion of the common person in here, who is looking at the sport from the outside.

**If any one of you is making a comment on the fact that I broke my promise to "not be windy".. I will smack you so hard with my rolling pin that your clothes will be out of style when you finally hit the ground**


Marshal'ette

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Lone Gunman,
thanks for the interpretation, I just spent four days with French Jack in the hills of Kentucky and thought I had it (the jargon) down pat.

Marshall Holloway,
I couldn't agree with you more that our sport is driven more form the outside (marketers) then in-house. With that said I hope NCOWS still has time to become something other then just a practice match for SASS. Don't get me wrong, I belong to SASS and shoot a match at least once a month.
I guess I am really a sentilmentalist when it comes to old guns and the old west and that is why I feel strongly that any modifications that weren't done pre 1900, should be for the organization that started it all, SASS, after all, it is money driven and has been from the start, but at one time it was the only game in town.
If this next example is any indication of the way NCOWS is heading it is a good sign. We just had a new club in western Kentucky apply for an NCOWS charter solely on being at and seeing the Eastern Regional in Kentucky this month (the clubs founder's words, not mine). This club was a SASS club, but, with all the race gun mentality going on in SASS, they were just fed up. I would hate to lose any members just because they didn't like the rules, but, the way I feel as some others do here, if we have members leave that don't like the rules, there will be others to take their place, we all have to play by some sort of rules in our lives.

Marshal'ette,
It's nice to have a pretty face post over here on the NCOWS forum once in a while, windy or not. Jeez..I hope that didn't sound too chauvinistic....

OCB