Question, Are Short Stroked Rifles NCOWS Legal.

[Major Matt Lewis]

GW,

NCOWS will only grow if they listen to their customer base and present an appealing quality product.  Not necessarily by "sticking" to what you said we should.  "Not Necessarily" being the operative word.  NCOWS will grow IF, we can resolve our perception issue within the CAS Community.  Look how hard people fought when I was considering bringing a GAF Posse into NCOWS.  Now truth be told, I had the numbers, but my career and other priorities changed so I could not carry that banner any longer.  Why did a lot of GAF members fight so hard?  Because it was NCOWS perception.  

Now, I run the GAF Muster as an NCOWS event.  I have drawn most of my customers (see, it is a business) from SASS.  I relax the authenticity requirements a little because I do not want them to feel uncomfortable.  For A LOT of my shooters, this is their first experience to NCOWS, other than reading about our silly little rants (yes, they really are silly) here on the internet.  It is my goal, to send everyone of them home with a "You know, those NCOWS folks are nothing like I thought.  I might want to be part of that." attitude in mind.  Why do I do this, because I love this organization in my own way.  I figure that the more folks see that NCOWS pards are not a "bunch of Whack Jobs..." the better we all are.  Now to be honest, I have actually heard NCOWS folks referred to that way.  I know it's not true, but that is our perception issue.

I have to agree with Annie's, Lars, some of St. George's and Cut's Crooked's posts.  I will also say that posts like this, the immortalized Gus Crease post and others like it, do not really do us justice.

[St. George]

Like I said - they are what they are...

Remember - in NCOWS - it's not NCOWS' responsibility to research what 'you' want to use - it's all 'yours'.

'You' do the necessary research and 'you' submit your verifiable documentation to NCOWS.

Do that, and you're golden.

The reference books on firearms, clothing and dress and the like literally abound - and then - there's the 'net to boost everything far beyond what can normally be found in your local library.

Even factory blueprints are available for study to answer those burning questions.

Pretty simple, all in all.

Does away with all that 'woulda if they coulda' stuff...

Also helps like-minded folks make decisions and causes them to delve further into the history of the Old West as they too, do research.

The Congress meets next month - and if this 'is' going to be a real problem - then tell your Reps, so that they can discuss the issue.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Lars]

OCB,

Nearly ALL of us are shooting some replica or other of guns actually manufactured in the late 1800s. Many (most?) of those replicas are not really accurate copies of the originals. I would strongly doubt that the manufacturing standards/specs of the originals stayed exactly the same over decades and decades -- for some of my old guns they clearly varied by substantial margins. SO, just where does one draw the "morality" line for altering an inexact copy of a single, individual gun of original manufacture, such as the Itallian copies of Win 1866s, 1873s? IF the alteration(s) make the copy more like at least some of the original manufacture, is that not going in the direction you advocate?

Modifying original manufacture guns (to make them something that never existed) or exact copies of some original manufacture guns is, to me, a different matter. I neither know or care where the line is drawn between making an "inexact" copy of a toggle-link lever gun a more accurate and making it something that never existed. I will not be using them in any case. I do care that the decision be based on far more than a few individual's reaction to a few "hot button" words, in this case, "short stroking".

I for one am not advocating copying SASS -- please do not think that is any part of my objective. I AM advocating some very careful attention to the enactment, repeal, modification, etc. of existing and new rules about acceptable guns and modifactions to them. This is a balancing act, that I think we can all agree on. I hope we can all agree that many (most?) of the replicas need significant work to either make them more functional (in the manner of the originals) or more accurate copies of the originals. I also hope that we all can agree that driving new NCOWS members to expensive after market gunsmithing to make authentic rifles (such as the modern Marlins and Winchester 92 clones and modern Winchester 94) more precisely like the 1800 versions is an adverse action.

As regards traditional BP and the modern BPs (commonly called "subs") I see really little difference in function between really authentic BP loads using quality BPs and the old, traditional BP bullet designs (such as factory BP ammo now available commercially from Republic Metallic Cartridge) and loads using modern BPs such as Hodgdon's 777 FFG or Pyrodex (yes, I have used all extensively). The low quality BPs, Goex, Dupont, Elefant, etc. are a different matter. Most of the "Holy Black" Goex-lovers would not agree with that nor do they have any basis other than "hot button" reactions for dismissal of the modern BPs.

Lars

[Lars]

I know Tex slightly.....yeah he probably shoots ROAs on occassion. But his usual irons are a mismatched pair, 73 Colt alongside a 60 Army.

I still think it might be a good idea to look at the possibility of "sunsetting" the more radical mods in NCOWS

Cuts,

My reference to the revolvers Tex used was at 2-3 Winter Range matches where he used Ruger OA each time. I was the shooter right before him each time so know exactly what revolvers he used those matches. What he uses other times, I have no personal information about.

I heartly agree with your last statement!!

Lars

[Major Matt Lewis]

Joss,

I have to agree with you, two different philosophys indeed.  Last year, I had 27 shooters at the GAF Muster last year.  Of those, I have 19 of those that are returning.  More than one is bringing a buddy.  This year, I have 46 registered now.  I suspect that I will crest 50.  What am I doing differently?  I don't know, but I am going to expose a lot of people to NCOWS that have no previous experience with it.  That is why it is absolutely critical that I focus on the customer experience (emphasizing the business aspect of it).  What will I be at next year? 

So, does it frustrate Grizzle Bear that we be slightly relaxed on some stuff?  Absolutely, but he knows that this is a hybrid match that is not only great exposure to the Kansas Vigilence Committee, but NCOWS as a whole.

I will admit that I have also lost some folks from attending because of the no gun cart rules of the range in which I use.  Well, so be it.  It is a trade-off that I made to utilize the range.  I guess what I am trying to do is display the win-win situation created by moderation.  Authenticity is relaxed a wee bit, but the shooter is still able to get the aggregate NCOWS experience that I want them to walk away and come back with. 

Remember that saloon statesman, Al Swearengin from Deadwood: "Moderation in all things."

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Matt,
A question? If you are holding the GAF match under the guise of NCOWS, and you are as you say loosening the rules for the SASS, or new shooters attending, don't you think you are creating a false impression of how NCOWS really is, or supposed to be? I don't see how you can say the match is NCOWS and not follow NCOWS rules, maybe I am missing something? I do applaud you on the gun cart issue.

OCB

[Grizzle Bear]

I wouldn't say we are "Loosening" any rules.  We have modified some things to fit the GAF ideals. 

Grizzle Bear

[Lars]

Does an elefant cease to be an elefant if someone cuts off its little tail, cuts some notches its ears and puts brass balls on the end of its tusks? I would think that one's experance with that elefant would still be quite the same, unless, of course, one is fixated on the tail and wants pristine ears and naturally pointed tusks.

Lar

[Derby Younger]

A question? If you are holding the GAF match under the guise of NCOWS, and you are as you say loosening the rules for the SASS, or new shooters attending

OCB:

Where in the world does Matt say anything about SASS?

[Major Matt Lewis]

Grizzle Bear put that better than I did.  I will point out that I do comply with at least level one.  When my Civil War uniform is ready, I will be at level 3 whenever I wear it, but oldly enough, I bought it to shoot Smoke in the Valley one day a SASS match.

But to answer your questions, no.  Because there will be enough of us NCOWS folks there to give them a flavor for what NCOWS REALLY is all about.  To me NCOWS is more about good comraderie around a campfire after the guns are put up.  For me, I don't get that at SASS (definately not a slap at SASS, as I have plenty of SASS Pards).  For me, that is the main difference between SASS and NCOWS, not some silly crease in a hat (buy the way does anybody really think that the weather and harsh conditions of the old west didn't crease hats naturally in just about every way ) or anything else.  

NCOWS will forever be about friends by the fire for me.  That is what I want people to take home from it.  NCOWS is the reason why I am buying Quick Fire's tent.  But I do not want NCOWS to become so burdend with rules that I no longer get to enjoy the campfire or bring others to it.  I do enjoy competing and winning.  But I do not like the fact that someone would tell me that I can't use my favorite rifle because it's throw has been made to more closely resemble that of the original firearm.

Buy the way, I have always said that I would endeavor to be as authentic as practical.  I am sure that eventually the most authentic person at the GAF Muster will eye the ever so modern Port a Potties with delight

[Wymore Wrangler]

And let's not forget that the GAF Muster is not a sanctioned NCOWS event, it's just being run under NCOWS rules.  And if it was being run exactly as the bylaws are written, guncarts would be allowed, women in pants wouldn't be as a general rule.  The GAF Muster is about having fun, let's not make it into anything else but that...

I recieved a PM from Major Matt saying that he did register the match in the Shootist, and I think the following by law applies to this event.

9-1-a.  In addition to these classes Chartered Clubs and special events may offer additional classes so long as they adhere to the general outline of these By-Laws.


But my opinion is if this is a sanctioned event, my views tend to lean more to OCB thinking about relaxing the rules....

[Silver Creek Slim]

I think we're getting a mite off-topic, now.

Slim

[Derby Younger]

Slim:

I know I was, so I'm chillin'

Thanks.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Derby,
That is the understanding I got from the Major's sentence:

So, does it frustrate Grizzle Bear that we be slightly relaxed on some stuff?  Absolutely, but he knows that this is a hybrid match that is not only great exposure to the Kansas Vigilence Committee, but NCOWS as a whole.

Maybe your interpretation is different, but that how I took it.

OCB

[Major Matt Lewis]

Sweet,

We have enough people with so little to do they sit around waiting to quote me....I am flattered.  Of course I encourage anybody who would like to come to come and those who don't want to not to...vote with you feet an wallet folks. 

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Perhaps another thread could be started to discuss NCOWS' relationship to the GAF muster? As I was gently reminded, this is about short stroke modifications. Joss, if you split it off, please feel free to delete this post.



AnnieLee

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Slim,

I think we're getting a mite off-topic, now.

Amen brother

OCB

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Matt,
You ae absolutely right!! Too much time waisted on this topic, I doubt if any minds were changed and I've got horses to feed, saddles to make so I am finished with this one......Adios Amigos!! Gi Ga waba' min Nagutch...
Talk to you later.....................Maybe

OCB

[Major Matt Lewis]

Bill,

As I stated much earlier in the thread and the PM I sent you, this, the SS discussion is a good conversation.  You are most welcome to dine on dead horse with me anytime around any campfire.  That reminds me that I need a prop for the eating of Dead Horse on the Beecher Island Stage....Hmmm, sounds like I am trying to make the event "Authentic" doesn't it


As to those who have issues with the way I run the Muster, come and if you don't have a good time, then don't come back.  If you can't come, might be best to reserve judgement, or even better, try holding an event to the scale of which I do and then give me some "feedback."  I would be most happy to hear about what you learned.

Looks like I will will be building the Squad List/Posse Assignments tonight after I get finished working on some more props.  Oh well, it's a labor of...Lust

[RRio]

Being the "new" guy in NCOWS, I am gonna add my two cents about the SS issue.
I recently joined NCOWS because the organization and the membership seems to be steering a truer course than SASS, as far as authenticity. That's what I want!

With that said, I would have no problem with a SS job that puts the Uberti '66 and '73s at the same stroke distance as the orgininal Winchester '66 & '73s.

NCOWS does NOT need to go down the same road that SASS is going down right now with the mod issues. To quote a song from CCR: "I see a bad moon rising."

Rawhide (happy to be a NCOWS) Rio