Question, Are Short Stroked Rifles NCOWS Legal.

[Lars]

Major Lewis,

The distinction between shortstroking kits/mods that do or do not involve welding may well be a useful distinction for the moment. However, its value could easily be fleeting, as inventive folks learn to make parts that do the same function as acheived via welding.

Annie Lee,

IF, in fact, Marlins and toggle-links can indeed be covered by the same wording, then I agree with you. However, I have not seen that demonstrated. Maybe I am just one of those inversely retrogressive Rossi M92 copy users.

Members Only Forum

Being a new NCOWS member as of early this year, I can quickly see pros and cons to a Members Only Forum. In many respects I would not want to see very many of the highly informative threads (at least to me) "disappear" from a fully public forum. In making my decision to join NCOWS I found the BB on TFS to be very influencial -- maybe even decisive. I also received a lot of helpful, sometimes very useful, advice, perspective, information from that public forum. I do agree that there are topics and discussions that could be best hashed and sliced and diced and etc. among members only. A Members Only forum would seem a great place to raise and develop a diversity of viewpoints and information on issues to be discussed in advance of augmenting/modifying existing rules, regs, etc. Maybe a Members Only forum would even get Annie Lee to join NCOWS.

Lars

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Lars,
If you will notice in my post it was suggeted that we have both, one where non members can post and one strictly for members only without outside interferrence. I don't think it should be an incentive to get people to join but to be used just for these kinds of discussions that impact our members.

OCB

I think we need this forum where NCOWS MEMBERS ONLY, can discuss and share issues and pertinent information about our bylaws and rules, without outside and unwanted interference. We can keep the regular NCOWS forum for that...........................

[Lars]

OCB,

I was not trying to ignore what you wrote, it just got lost in those 14 pages, which I DO NOT reread before each new post I make -- I am kinda lazy that way. I don't even always remember what I wrote!!

Actually, I think my take on the whole issue of public or Members Only fora is much like what Joss House posted just above.

Lars

[Delmonico]

I've thought it over a lot and I agree with you Joss.  If differances are so bad the public can't see them and not lose respect for the group then we have problems that can't be solved.

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Lars, you asked about Marlins. Below is a pic of a Marlin with its lever fully extended, then a pic of a '73 sandwiched by two Marlins, all with levers fully extended. I think you'll be able to see the Marlins would fit into the" greater than or equal to 80 degrees."

Sadly, I don't have access to a '92, so I can't help with that one.



AnnieLee

[Lars]

Thanks Annie Lee!

The Rossi 92s are very similar to those you show pics of, at least mine is. Suppose original Winchester 92s, as well as Winchester 94s, are about like those too.

Lars

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Glad to help, Lars.



AnnieLee

[Dr. Bob]

Annie Lee,

You said the because the Two Gun Regional had a test, that you would NOT join NCOWS.

Most all that have contributed to this topic are NCOWS MEMBERS.  We have paid for the privilige of changing the rules through our posse Rep and our Senators who are elected by all NCOWS MEMBERS.  It is a club with dues and rules.  Why do you, a non member feel that you must solve a problem for a group that you chose not to belong to?

If you want to tell us how to run our group, step up and join!

NCOWS member and proud of it!

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Well, gosh, Dr. Bob, I don't recall ever saying I would not join NCOWS because of the test. I may have torn up my application because of the attitude I received as a result of my comments on the test, but that is a quite different matter.

This is a public board, open to members of the forum. Is the message you want people to receive one of "We don't want to talk to outsiders, even if they present a rational and realistic solution to an issue"?

How about rather than making me the issue, you propose an alternative solution?



AnnieLee

[Dr. Bob]

Annie Lee,

Yep, is sure is a public forum.  I just grew up thinking that it was polite not to tell a group that I chose not to belong to how to operate.  That is how I was raised.  If I want to participate in making decisions, I join.  If I don't want to join, I keep my mouth shut.  Just how I am.  You are of course, free to say what you want.

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Dr. Bob, if you can find a post of mine anywhere on this multipaged thread where I told NCOWS how to operate, please feel free to quote me, for I don't recall doing it. All you are currently doing is reinforcing the message that some NCOWS members have no interest in anything an outsider may have to say.

Again, I ask, why are you making this about me, instead of working on a potential solution? Do you think short strokes should be allowed?



AnnieLee

[Dr. Bob]

Annie Lee,

I have no experience concerning short stroke modifications and so won't give an opinion that I am unqualified to speak to.  I am not in NCOWS for the competitive aspect, but for fun.  I'm happy to stick with my Win. 73 like it came.  I'm not looking for a competitive edge.  Been there and done that a long time ago and I don't need that at this point in my life.  ALL that I have to say.

[Wymore Wrangler]

Annie, I welcome your participation in this forum, anyone that buys TWO airline tickets from Virginia to come to a our convention has shown a solid interest in this organization.  I and a few others on this board would really like to see you take the plunge and officially join our rank.  NCOWS really isn't like the internet image we portray...

[Surly Bob]

This thread is being thrashed to death.

Are short stroked rifles NCOWS legal?  Answer is YES.

Should this be made illegal?  Up for contention.  But my vote is NO. 

I short stroked our '73 because my wife and daughter were short stroking anyway....and hating it every time they picked up the rifle.  I was thinking I just spent a huge amount of cash on a rifle that was about to be rejected....and I hated it too! 
It's no fun when your rifle misfires or jams.  I think anyone who are REAL shooters in this organization know that fact!

I submit that most of us CAS shooters and very nearly all spectators wouldn't be able to tell an orignal rifle from a repro, or a short stroke from an original stroke, simply by observation.  Therefore no VISIBLE modifications is a very wise way to craft this rule.

Beyond that, each of us is free to have or not have a short stroke kit installed in our rifles as long as it is not plainly visible to all but the authenticity police or a gunsmith. 

If it makes the sport more fun, and attracts membership or better yet, keeps the membership we now have....then I'm all for it.

If authenticity extremism manifests itself in this instance, I think it would be a disservice to NCOWS future.  Most of us look up to the folks who live the authenticity of NCOWS, that should be enough. 


 

[Montana Slim]

Too bad I didn't get here before page 15....my post would probably heated the fire a few degrees.

I guess folks claim that short-stroked rifles are currently NCOWS legal...just cause they ain't specifically banned at this time

Well, as a NCOWS member who cares seriously about this organization's guiding priniple of authententic firearms, clothing, accoutrements as well as more historically or realistically placed targets and shooting scenarios (i.e. not lined up in shooting gallery format) I'm here to explain my understanding of the "true faith". When a firearm is modified by the user (or his smithy) to have a different configuration (hardware/parts - mechanical stuff), as per a short-stoke mod....that modification does not represent a product available in our time period and thus cannot be documented to our time period (i.e. show me the documentation).

As a configuration-manager of several firearms design, I certainly believe (preach may be closer ) that as soon as a short-stroke kit modification is installed, thus altering the throw distance of the lever, the rifle is no longer the same Uberti reproduction rifle listed on the NCOWS approved list.

The argument that short-stroking them to make them more "authentic":
I have examined a number of original rifles and compared samples to reproduction rifles & find that out-of-the-box, they have very comparable length of stroke. So, this argument does not hold up.

If a person is having "jams" with their rifle, it's probably cause it's a .45 or .38. that's the chance you take using an approved, but less authentic cartridge. The rifles really weren't designed with these two in mind.

For those with weak arms, etc.. a little work-out may be in-order. My youngest niece, fired my '66 Rifle with BP 44-40 loads when she was 9yrs old . There are also approved methods such as action smoothing and lightening of springs to make the rifle easier to operate. These things may even improve reliability, but they don't provide a different operating mechanism, nor have they made the rifle less authentic. Again, undertaking some of these options puts you at risk of a light-strike failure and potentially lower reliability..again at the user's risk. Anyone who is capable of holding the rifle at arms length can certainly fully stroke a standard rifle. Particularly a '73 or '66. If not, shoot a rough-as-a-cob Rossi for a couple years, then switch to a '73 / '66 and you'll believe you got a super-duper-slick and reliable rifle.

For those who don't know me, I am an NCOWS member. Life, if anyone cares.
When we change our guiding principles just to appease & grow our ranks, I'll join the number of good pards who have faded from the NCOWS scene.

As for what SASS allows....why should NCOWS care...heck, they even allowed the "big-boy" even after the membership resoundingly said "no". Just 'cause near everyone at the SASS clubs are shooting a short-stroked-short-rifle doesn't make it right for NCOWS.

...And I'm sure there is a good market for a used S-S kit on the wire

Slim

[St. George]

Nicely stated, Slim.

And true.

The posted pictures of the Marlin and Winchesters are nice - but we weren't comparing the two.

If you want to shoot a Marlin - shoot a Marlin - and if you want to shoot a Winchester - then shoot one of those.
Comparing lever throws on two wholly-different manufacturers bears no relevance whatsoever.

A comparison like that leads to adding Spencers and Whitney-Kennedys and Evans to the list.

Like I said - the short-stroke kit is what it is and SASS is its domain.

The attempt to adjust NCOWS' principles to those of 'IPSC With Hats' will continue to keep good folks away.

There's enough room on the line somewhere else - if competition and placement are so important that the authenticity and love of the history of the 'real' Old West can be set aside.

They'll be happy to take your money...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Early in this lengthy thread, Kaycee posted pictures of two '73s to demonstrate their relative throw. Later on, Lars asked to see the lever throw of a Marlin. When I took the pictures, I had one of a Marlin, then one of two Marlins and a '73. The intent of the pictures wasn't to compare two wholly different manufacturers. The purpose was to see if an 80 degree rule could apply to Marlins as well as the '73s, it was a reality check to see if such a rule would be viable.

Something like an 80 degree rule addresses the issue of short strokes and a perceived "competitive advantage" without using a screwdriver on someone's rifle. All that is needed to impose such a rule is eyesight.

I ask those who would ban all short stroke kits: how do you intend to do it without using a screwdriver on someone's rifle?

AnnieLee

[Major Matt Lewis]

St. George,

The fact that you "do not shoot with civilians" is plainly evident in your post.  Maybe you should try it sometime.  Might be a bruise or two on the old ego but you would benefit from the aggregate experience.  The throw does make a difference.  Currently the stock Marlin throw is much shorter than Uberti's.  For many years, the formula is SASS for rifle success was a Marlin.  Until the SS kits came and "evened up the playing field."  Now both rifles are equally competitive.  The only thing that isn't is the shooter and that is the way it should be.

What many seem to miss is that through all the rules and focus on authenticity at the heart of it, this is a shooting competition.  If anybody does not think that is so, try holding an event with no timers and no awards.  See what your event participation is like.  We don't participate in this sport to celebrate mediocracy.  And if anybody does not think my focus on the Spirit of NCOWS is appropriate, I will post the costume judging criteria at the GAF Muster after the event.  It was made up by a SASS friend of mine, Chantilly, who decided not to join NCOWS based on the abrasive behaviour of some folks here on the internet.

[Will Ketchum]

I have stayed out of this long enough.  I am writing as a NCOWS member and not the moderator. 

Major, competitiveness is not what NCOWS is about.  It is about experiencing the 19th Century as much as we can and choose to.   We do have minimal standards but the hope is that members will feel the urge to do more and to strive for as much of a degree of authenticity as their budget and nature will allow.

This is not to say that we aren't competitive because it is part of human nature but it isn't the driving force behind NCOWS.  We have SASS to feed the competitive beast that dwells in most of us.  I would hope that winning would be a long ways down the list of criteria for an NCOWS shooter. 
A 19th century shooter mostly used guns as they found them.  Anything more than an action job is, in my opinion, outside the scope of what NCOWS is about.

As an example say a person became interested in racing vintage automobiles.  He would be limited to what engines and other drive chain components that were available in that era.  If he bored and stroked the engine or put in a high speed rear end he would be in violation of what brought him to the sport in the first place and that is to experience what his forefathers did when driving those type of cars.  That isn't to say that some might not be attracted to the sport of vintage auto racing (if there is such a sport) because they couldn't be competitive if they raced in modern equipment.  The big fish in a small pond syndrome.  I suspect that some are attracted to NCOWS for that reason.  They couldn't compete with top SASS shooters but can with NCOWS shooters whose emphasis isn't on winning but experiencing as much of the Old West as possible for a 20th or 21st Century person can.

We, as individuals must decide what is important for them but if competition is your main focus you are in the wrong organization.  I am a life member of both organizations, I just wear different "hats" at different shoots.  I have learned over the years where my priorities lie with both groups and act accordingly.

Will Ketchum

[Major Matt Lewis]

Will,

I went up to NTR last month and that was a GREAT eye-opener as to what NCOWS can be.  And you know what, I saw Steve Paulson, he won the overall even though there was no over all catagory.  I last saw Steve at End of Trail where he was tearing it up there.  I also saw Larry, aka Spittin Lead (Won Land Run overall), who does have asperations of winning EOT, and just may one day.  I also shot against a couple of duelist that absolutely cleaned my clock, meaning based on the scores, even if I did not have two shotgun malfunctions and a hit on a knock down that did not fall, I still probably would have come up short.  That "loss" actually benefited me as a shooter.  I gave me a goal for next year.  I reckon that is the difference between shooters that attempt to be competitive and those who are content with mediocracy.  The Goal.

So for the implication that within NCOWS does not dwell competitive shooters and I mean folks that are dang good at this sport, is not only a mis-statement, but a discredit to the organization as an aggregate.  I can tell you plannly that this organization is a heck of a lot more than a bunch of thread counting, crease complaining, short stroke hating whack jobs.  The problem with that though, is that most folks who would like to see NCOWS grow and fully reach it's potential remain silent, at least here on the internet.  But they do read it here everyday.

I will also through out that I did not join NCOWS to "cherry pick."  I don't know anybody who did.  I just don't like rules that attempt to inflict mediocracy on everybody.  As the people who beat you today with better equipment will still beat you tomorrow.  And were it not a competition, why is there a timer?

The Government which Governs Least Governs Best.