1894 Stevens favorite, Calibers .22,.25,.32, others, either RF or CF

[Gus Walker]

I used the brand Evaporust to clean a muzzleloader barrel and it worked really well. Harbor Freight carries it as well as some auto parts stores.

[Chev. William]

My Rust removal experiment now has 24 hours of 'soak' time and is showing some visible results.
There is a visible difference in the appearance of the part o fit that is immersed compared to the portion that is has not been immersed.
Still a ways to go before the rust is removed.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I tried a different Rust removal experiment.  this time I use some rusted reamers and drill bits as the subjects of the test, the same "Enviro-Rust" chemical, a Glass rectangular casserole dish as the container and kept it on my bathroom sink counter (insde temperatures).
The experiment was run for four 24hour days with the tools checked each day.

Results:
Day one - no visible effect.
Day two - visible reduction in the amount of rust on the tools but still rusty.
Day three - Tools mostly rust free and the dish has quantity of black particles in the bottom, chemical is turning dark.
Day four - Tools almost rust free, except for some remaining discoloration.  After rinsing and rubbing with a Scotch bright dish sponge pad almost all discolorations came off.  Experiment terminated and deemed a success.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Two more things arrived after purchase.
The first was another Stevens 1894 .32 Long Barrel with the Knurled Ring on it.  This one seems to have been chambered for the .32 S&W Long as the chamber diameter is .347" and the depth is 1.055"; a lot larger in diameter than the .318" - .320" for a .32 Long or .32 Long Colt.  I have not Slugged the bore on it yet so I will not comment on those diameters.  The bore has good rifling for full length with some pitting but not bad in appearance overall.  The exterior is gunmetal grey with blue-brown coloration patches covering mos tof the exposed surface.  There are 'dings' in the exterior from long use.

The second thing is a 5 cavity mold from Accurate Molds to cast ".311090A" heeled inside lubed 90 grain Round/flat nose bullets for my .32 Long Colt loads.  I will be sending the mold to "Matt's Bullets" in Highland, AR to have the bullets cast for me.  I intend to let Matt commercially cast and sell the bullets for other users of the .32 Long Colt just because there are so few commercial sources for such suitable bullets.  Jack Harrison of WI does cast and sell "299153" outside lube 90 grain bullets and there may be a few more around.

My next 'adventure' into bullet molds will be to design and have made a mold for a 65 to 69 grain .255" diameter bullet that can be sized to .252" or so to fit the .25 Stevens cartridges and barrels.  So far I have foud NO commercial source fo rthis weight and size bullet.  there are sources fo r.251" diameter 35 and 50 grain jacketed bullets and 50 grain Cast bullets but none of the 65 to 69 grain range less than .257" to.260" diameter.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Some measurements on1894 and 1915 Stevens parts and comparisons:
Two Stevens Favorite 1894 Breech Blocks measure .502" and .495" in width.
Three Stevens Favorite 1915 Breech Blocks measure .542", .544", and .432" in width.
The Custom made !915 Action Breech block measures .594" in width.

"Wisner's" web site states that both of the pivot screws (Breech block and lever) for the 1894 action measure .187" diameter. The Breech Block Width is stated as 1/2".
"Wisner's" also states that the Breech Block pivot screw for the 1915 action measures .216" diameter and the Lever pivot screw measures .187" diameter.  The Breech Block Width is stated as .550".

My 1915 action Pivot screws measure .249" (Breech block) and .225" (Lever) while the matching holes are .250" and .228" diameters.

Conclusions to date:
My 1915 action has been modified in the past with a custom pair of pivot screws, a custom Breech block, a modified/custom lever and possibly a custom link, all of which are larger in the stressed sections than the original parts.
Presently I surmise that the larger sections are also probably modern, high strength Steel Alloy so may provide increased Action strength and resistance to bending or breaking under load.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[BillMac]

Chev. William, I too have a couple of Stevens in 25RF, Model 44s  One was converted to 22WMR with a barrel liner, though not by me. The other is "stock", though I had started to gather the parts  together to convert it to centerfire and had started to make 22 Hornet cases to 25 RF specs for use in it.  A couple of thoughts to share with you that I haven't had time to try yet.  I too picked up some 25cal nail gun cartridges.  I also have some 25cal airgun pellets.  Airgun pellets measure .251.  My thought is that you could push an air gun pellet forward in the chamber and load the nail gun cartridge in behind it.  My worry is that as I don't have any idea how powerful the nail gun cartridges are, they might blow the front out of the pellet leaving the outside cylinder in the bore.  I got the idea from two brass "Cartridges" I bought that fit 222 and 223, and use 22cal airgun pellets driven by a 209 shotgun primers.  I just wonder how the power of those primers compares to the nail gun cartridges.   Airgun pellets can be very accurate out to 50 yards or so.  25 ACP bullets are also 251 and cast bullet molds are available for them.   Regards BillMac

[Old Top]

BillMac,

There is some information on the ramset blanks in the powder room under reloading 32rf.  Hope that is of assistance.

Old Top

[Chev. William]

Billmac,
Air rifle pellets are/were also made with a solid body/head in .25 Caliber By Benjamin, I believe.

RE: .25ACP Cast Bullet molds; Have you found a source for .251 diameter molds for bullet weights in the 65 to 69 grain range? 
I have only found .25ACP in 52 grains or less.   
There are .257" bullet molds for over 70grains but the lube grooves almost disappear if sized to .251".

For general information, the following is copied from another Forum and Thread:
"Powder tool loads (PTL) come in at least three calibers and at least twelve power ratings.
Below is a partial copy of information from another Forum and Thread on characteristics of PTL 'Blanks':

"Blanks have been used both in Europe and through Dixie Gun Works here to act as 'primers' in machined brass cartridges with offset chambers so the blank rim is positioned to be fired by the original RF firing pin. They are intended to be filled with Powder and have a bullet seated in them, the European ones use a heeled round nosed or semi-pointed nosed bullet and Dixie says theirs work with Round balls also.

Industrial Powder tool loads come in a range of power ratings from 1, the weakest, to 12, the strongest. They also come in two types of closures, Star crimped and roll crimp over a seal wad. I would think the Star crimped ones would work similar to the Olden Times Bench Rest shooters technique of loading a bullet then inserting a Cartridge with a wad crimped in the mouth, to get the bullet exactly positioned where they thought they would get maximum accuracy. The roll crimped ones could also be used but I would worry about wad residue left in the bore for the next round to find.
Wikipedia provides this list:
"Color-coding for the "rounds" or "single shots" (the three shot strengths or colors typically sold to the general public are brown, green and yellow in brass):
In brass casing:
Color-coding Velocity
(1)- Grey 315 ft/s (96 m/s)
(2)- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s)
(3)- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s)
(4)- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s)
(5)- Red 675 ft/s (206 m/s)
(6)- Purple 755 ft/s (230 m/s)

In nickel (silver) casings:
(7)- Grey 845 ft/s (258 m/s)
(Eight)- Brown 935 ft/s (285 m/s) (Edited to try to remove a icon that should no tbe here
(9)- Green 1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)
(10)- Yellow 1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)
(11)- Red 1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)
(12)- Purple 1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)"

I have also seen a listing for a intermediate loading with a brass case and Blue tip but do not remember it's place in this range of loadings. The velocity ratings obviously apply to some standard fastener and it's positioning in the tool and the tip to point of impact distance, as All Tool usage requires the 'muzzle' of the Tool to be in strong contact with the target point to release the safety and allow the tool to fire.

Loads are listed as available in .22, .25, and .27 calibers. In the past I have used .22 Grade 7 (Nickle with Gray Tip loads shaped like a .22 Shot shell) in a Ruger Standard Automatic with a machined steel 'furnace' or blank firing adapter attached to the muzzle in Military Training. It provided very reliable functioning of the action, a LOUD report, and at night a flame about 18 inches long. It made a very effective Attention Getting device for inattentive Sentries at night.

Current .22 Caliber Grade 2 Brown Tipped Load is in a case with the following measurements:
Rim diameter +.274"; Rim thickness =.040"; Body Diameter above rim =.225"; Body diameter just below shoulder =.224"; Neck Diameter =.205"; Height to bottom of shoulder =.354"; Height to top of shoulder =.378"; Height to bottom of star crimp =.483"; Overall Length =.503"; Head Stamp is "Super X", a Winchester-Western trademark. The shape is reminiscent of a .22 long rifle Shot shell but considerably shorter.

Current .25 Caliber Grade 3 Green Tipped load is in a case with the following measurements;
Rim diameter =.296"; Rim thickness =.047"; Body diameter =.244" to .245"; Overall Length =.398" to .399"; Height to bottom of star crimp = .287"; Head Stamp = "H" inside Circle (possibly Olin/Henry?).

Current .27 Caliber Grade 3 Green Tipped load is in a case with the following measurements:
Rim diameter =.329"; Rim thickness =.050; Body diameter =.2695" to .270"; Overall Length =.411"; Height to bottom of star crimp = .275"; Head stamp = "H" inside Circle (possibly Olin/Henry?).

Previous observations of a Grade 7 Gray on Nickel Loads showed it was in a .22 Long rifle length Shot shell case and would function through a .22 Long rifle chambered firearm easily and reliably. SAMMI Dimensions for the .22 Long Rifle Shot Cartridge are as follows;
Rim diameter = .278"; Rim thickness =.043"; Body Diameter =.226" cylindrical; Neck diameter =.217"; Height to bottom of shoulder =.6506"; Height to top of shoulder =.7078"; Height to bottom of star crimp = Not Listed; Overall Length =.990"."

I hope this information helps with the 'project'.
Merry Christmas to Everyone,
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[BillMac]

Old Top and Chev. William, Thanks.  I have a 25cal Air Force air rifle and a large selection of pellets to try with the power tool loads once I get the time.  Hopefully the heavier pellets will work with out any problems and I had the concern as it was brought up on the 22 Pellet/209 primer use.   No, the same as you I haven't found any .251 molds bigger than around 50 grains.  At the time I was looking at them for 25cal air rifle use.  I haven't done any bullet casting for a long time now so my information may be out dated.  At one time sizing cast bullets more than a couple of thousands had a negative effect on their accuracy.  That said, these were serious cast bullet target shooters and their "negative effect" might be perfectly acceptable for our usage trying to get old firearms up and running again.  Has anyone looked into swaging(sp?) bullets in .251?  You'd lose the lube grooves, but at one time one of the bullet manufactures sold swaged lead bullets without lube grooves that were surface lubed, but I think they were pistol bullets.  Does Lee still make their Alox(sp? liquid lube that you rolled the bullets around in?  That might be a possibility for a swaged bullet.  Regards.  BillMac

[Chev. William]

Yes, Lee still sells Liquid Alox and they pack a bottle with each push through "Lube and Size" kit they sell.
I have a Special Order in for one to size .252" and expect it around Mid January to late January.

Best Regards,
Chev. william

[Chev. William]

Lee is now accepting orders for Custom items, I just ordered Case trimming pieces for my .25 Stevens CF mildcat and my .912" .32 Long Colt use. 
Best Regareds,
Chev. William

[rbertalotto]

I'm finding this thread fascinating.

Thanks for sharing!

(But WE NEED PICTURES!)

And I'd also appreciate a a list of links top any other information you folks might have on these old Stevens and centerfire conversion or modified rimfire cartridge conversions.

Thanks!

[Chev. William]

I'm finding this thread fascinating.

Thanks for sharing!

(But WE NEED PICTURES!)

And I'd also appreciate a a list of links top any other information you folks might have on these old Stevens and centerfire conversion or modified rimfire cartridge conversions.

Thanks!

There are several Threads with Information both on this Forum, CAS City, and some others like Cast Boolits, Shooters Forum, and Ammoguide and ASSRA Forum among others.  Search using 'Stevens Favorite', or one of the Calibers it was chambered for such as .25 Stevens or .32 Long but note there will also be results that are related to the .32 S&W Long mixed in with the ones for .32 Long colt.
There are also other makes of rifles that have been used/converted such as Remington, Martin, Harrison & Richardson, etc.
That you might look for.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[broken arrow]

Hey Chev. William,
I have joined this sight (and another) because of your tests with the old rimfires.
I decided that lurking was not enough.
Some of what I'm playing with...
.25acp in a Stevens Marksman
.25RF in a Ballard
.32RF and .32 Long Colt in a Ballard and #4 Rem rolling blocks
.38RF and CF in a Ballard
.46RF in a Ballard
I'll be watching, and hopefully helping in, your trials and tribulations.
Thanks,
Dave

[Chev. William]

Hey Chev. William,
I have joined this sight (and another) because of your tests with the old rimfires.
I decided that lurking was not enough.
Some of what I'm playing with...
.25acp in a Stevens Marksman
.25RF in a Ballard
.32RF and .32 Long Colt in a Ballard and #4 Rem rolling blocks
.38RF and CF in a Ballard
.46RF in a Ballard
I'll be watching, and hopefully helping in, your trials and tribulations.
Thanks,
Dave

Dave,
Thank you for your comments. 
Would you care to share your results with some of your trials to date?
What did you use for your trials of the RF rounds?
"Inquiring minds would like to know".
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[broken arrow]

Hi,
Let me see if I can remember it all and not ramble on.
First... WARNING, the following information is what has worked for me. It is not the only way, the best way, or the worst way.
Be careful and remember that your health/life is all on you.

.25acp in a Stevens Marksman- originally a 44 shot but the barrels on these can easily be swapped out. So this will now be a switch barrel. I have a liner coming from Track Of The Wolf. I have 500 rounds of loaded fmj for fixed ammo and 1000 primed cases for playing with breachseating and/or paper patching.

.25RF Stevens in a Ballard #3- this model rifle was only available in rf so it does not have the reversible firing pin. I have reamed a .22 Hornet case cut to length and sized, and popped .22 ramset rounds in it. The Hornet case doesn't have a lot of meat left after the reaming so I'm not sure of case longevity. I will be stopping by the local hobby shop to check out the brass selection and maybe turn some cases for this. Another option is to slightly "kiss" the chamber with a .22 Hornet reamer to make something close to a .25 Hornet. I think this would be a lot easier on brass.

.32RF and CF- I have a Ballard in .32 that has the reversible firing pin and the #4 rolling blocks are RF. I have tried the Dixie conversion catridges and they work with the ramsets but they are a little difficult to "re-prime". I have 200 .32 Long Colt cases, 200 .32 S&W Long cases, and a quantity of the .32 S&W-to-Long Colt cases. I have only popped caps and further playing will be done as time permits.

.38RF and CF in a Ballard- This rifle has the reversible firing pin so it has only been shot CF. For this I'm using .30-30 cases cut down and fireformed. A custom mold that drops 140 grain/.379 dia. bullets and 5 to 6 grains of Unique makes a fun combination.

Now the .46RF Ballard- This rifle is a bit confusing. The chamber dimensions are between the .44RF and the .46RF and the bore is .430 inch diameter. So, for this one, I am cutting down and fireforming .303 British cases. I am still playing with this as I have to fit a CF firing pin to the block without butchering it (it is dated 1864).

I hope I haven't rambled on too much, but I really like these oddballs.
Thanks again,
Dave

[broken arrow]

I have a word of warning for everyone about using brass tubing over the ramset round.
I have seen what happens when a case body seperates from the case head upon firing.
The case body goes into the bore with the bullet, creating a great obstruction that increases pressures to astronomic heights, which then procedes to dis-assemble your firearm into individual atoms.
The result is not pretty!!!
I can see this same situation potential with the tubing/ramset round.
Please be careful and heed the warning.
Thanks,
Dave

[Chev. William]

Dave,

Now the .46RF Ballard- This rifle is a bit confusing. The chamber dimensions are between the .44RF and the .46RF and the bore is .430 inch diameter. So, for this one, I am cutting down and fireforming .303 British cases. I am still playing with this as I have to fit a CF firing pin to the block without butchering it (it is dated 1864).

I looked up cartridge dimensions in "2nd Edition, Ammo Encyclopedia" by Michael Bussard.
The 44RF series is listed as having two different body diameters:  The 44 Short Rf and 44 Henry Flat RF at .445" and the 44 Long RF and 44 Extra Long at .458".  Bullet diameters are listed as .446" (Short, Extra Long, and Henry Flat) and .451" (Long).
The 46RF series is listed as having .458 body diameters for all four members (Extra Short, Short, Long, and Extra Long).
Bullet diameters are listed as .454" (Long) and .456" (Extra Short, Short, and Extra Long).
None of these seem to have a bullet intended for a .430" Bore.

What is the Groove diameter of the 'Ballard' Barrel?
Perhaps a measurement of the chamber length (a chamber casting?) would help sort out the correct cartridge dimensions.

Your Experiences with the .25ACP and .25 Stevens seem to parallel my own as i am also experimenting with Lengthened .250ACP cases and .25 Stevens "CF" conversions of .22 Hornet cases (reforming the Hornet to .276" body diameter down to the rim and trimming to various lengths from 1.000" to the limit fo what is available after the body diameter is 'swaged' down.

I have been considering using swaged down .014" wall model Hobby tubing to .276" OD and Temporarily holding the blanks either by tension or with some 'glue' but I have not tried to fire any yet.  
Your CAUTION Warning about the tubing going with the bullet into the bore is good advice.  
The .25 Stevens barrels I have all seem to have steps in diameter at the 'bullet end' of the chamber that the tubing nominally would seat against, something like happens in a .30 M1 Carbine or .45ACP chamber both of which head space off the cartridge mouth.

I also have purchased a Barrel Blank to be made into a .25ACP rifle length Barrel eventually for a Marlin Model 56 Action but as an interim will be worked up as a full diameter 'Bull Barrel' for a Stevens Favorite Action to run my Experiments with.   It is from Lothar Walther and is properly sized (bore/groove) for the .25ACP/6.35 Browning) rather than the larger .257" of Rifle bullets and cartridges.  Nominal Bore/Groove are .243"/.250" with a 1 turn in 9.4 inch Twist rate and a 23.4 inch length.

For my .32 Caliber experiments I have recently received a Shelin Match Grade Stainless Steel Barrel Blank of 28-1/8 inch length and 1-1/4 diameter that measures .301 Bore and .308 Groove diameters.  It will also be worked up as an interim full diameter 'Bull Barrel' for a Stevens Favorite action.  i have several used Stevens .32 Long barrels in various conditions of bore and exterior with one notable because the chamber diameter measures .348", way over even .32 S&W Long case diameter, let alone .32 Long Colt or .32 Long RF diameters.  But it slugs suitable for .32 Long Colt so I will probably have it fitted with a Chamber bushing and reamed to 'match grade' .32 Long Colt dimensions.

My own inventory of Cartridges I load for include .25ACP, and my Experiments, .25 Stevens (RF and my CF Experiments) .30 Carbine, .30-06, .32 Long/.32 Long colt, 38 Long Colt, 41 Long colt, .44-40WCF, 45ACP, and .45 Win. Mag.

Your range of firearms in RF, and Cf versions of the same, is very impressive, I am glad you decided to share your experiences with us.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Broken Arrow - Chev queued me to your post and joining in on the discussion about loading rimfire cartrdiges.  I too am very glad to see you chime in and share your experiences.  We've been discussiing this in The Powder Room under the  .32 Colt thread and on the Cast Boolits forum, under the Rimfire section.  If you have not done so, I encourage you to check them out.  I've been shooting a #4 rolling block in .32 that I converted to centerfire using .32 long colt cases.  It shoots extremely well.  More recently I started playing with a #2 rolling block in .32 extra long rimfire.  This past week I made some reloadable rimfire cases from 327 Federal magnum brass and use .22 blanks for ignition.  They work great.  Here's are a couple photos of the cartridges I just made. 





We would all like to see some photos of what you are working with

[broken arrow]

This is what I have found on my .46RF.
In the book "The American Cartridge" there is one picture of a single round of ammo that has the following description...
46 Long
rim dia. .527
head dia. .457
case mouth .457
bullet dia. .427
case length 1.257
All these measurements fit this chamber/bore within a thousandth or so.
So, I'm calling it a match.

I also have just picked up a #2 Remington rolling block in .32-20, need to get some loads together for it.
As for pics...I'm afraid that I spend my extra moolah on firearms and ammo supplies and have never bought anything to take pictures with. (My cellphone is 15 years old and doesn't do anything but make phone calls)
I'll work on it though.
Thanks,
Dave