Question for those shooting a 73 rifle in 38-40

[BobinIL]

I finally loaded up some ammo for my Uberti 73 rifle in 38-40.  I am using Win brass the standard RNFP cowboy bullet and 5.5grns of Trail Boss.  THe first round I cycled in the chamber the case pulled out leaving the bullet in the chamber and spilling the powder all over the action.  After disasembling the rifle and tappng the bullet out I noticed the bullet had marks where it was contactng the rifling.  Looks like I have one of two things going on.  My brass is too long or my chamber is too short.  Since I do not want to send my rifle to a gunsmith to have the chamber recut I am going to trim about 20 thousanths off of all my brass.  I assume this will not hurt anything since we often shoot 38 specials in 357 chambered guns.

[Cliff Fendley]

I would find the source of the problem and properly correct it.

Shooting the smokeless powder you will possibly create a high pressure situation unless you adjust your powder charge. Published load data is available for 38 and 357. Where can you find load data for a shortened 38-40 case?  

It's hard to believe only .020 of a lead bullet in contact with the rifling would pull a properly crimped bullet.

When working up a new load or a new rifle I drop a round into the chamber rather than cycling it through the action.

[rbertalotto]

I would think you meant "pulled"

Are you sure you are setting the bullets back far enough and crimping in the proper place?

I have near a dozen various 38-40 firearms and none of them have short leads. My Uberti 1866 is actually rather long in the lead.

[BobinIL]

Ok, I loaded up another round, Crimped the case mouth into the crimping canalure very tightly then dropped the round into the chamber of my rifle and it lacked about 1/16 to 1/32 of an inch of fully chambering.  I then closed the lever and squeezed it into the chamber.  This time it extracted without pulling the bullet and left some pretty significant rifling marks.  I think i have a short chamber.  Who wold be best to fix this?  I bought the gun used and the previous owner had it for about 10 years and barely ever shot it.

[Wolfgang]

I experienced the same thing when I first tired out my Original Winchester '73 in .38-40. 

The bullet contacting the rifling is actually very good for accuracy. 

I found I needed to crimp my brass with the factory crimp die in addition to the crimping that is done by the seating die. 


No more problem.   

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

You might want to take a look at the post I did not too long ago on the Winchester 1873 page.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,46260.0.html

In it I describe some of the trials and tribulations I went through loading up my first 38-40 rounds for a 1887 vintage Winchester Model 1873. I did not mention it in the post, but my rifle was engraving the rifling on the bullet too. Even when I got my diameter and compression problems straightened out, the rifle still engraves the rifling onto the bullet.



However, I have not experienced any problems with the bullets pulling out of the case. Both 44-40 and 38-40 have extremely thin brass at the case mouth. No matter how hard you crimp, the thin brass simply does not have much holding power. The brass never really locks very securely into the crimp groove, it is more a case of it smushing in (technical term) and taking the shape of the crimp groove. That is why I always use a Lee Factory Crimp Die with 44-40. I do not use one with any other caliber, 45 Colt and other cartridges have much more robust brass at the case mouth and will mechanically lock the bullet in place with a conventional crimp die. But for 44-40 I use the FCD to get an extra bit of squeeze on the brass that a regular crimp die will not do. When I got set up for 38-40, I went ahead and bought a FCD for that caliber too. So far, no problems with bullets pulling out.

You might want to try a Lee Factory Crimp die to lock your bullets in a little bit more firmly. Particularly if you are shooting Smokeless. With Black Powder the bullet will not telescope into the case because there is a solid plug of powder keeping it out. But with Smokeless, every time a bullet is stripped out of the magazine, the entire column slams backwards and comes to an abrupt stop. It is that abrupt stop that can drive bullets in, telescoping them into the case. You really do not want that to happen. In addition to causing feed problems, it will shrink the interior volume of the case, which will raise pressure when you fire the round.

[BobinIL]

Sent my gun off to Cody Conagher to have the throat reamed.  From what he told me all Uberti rifles in 38-40 have short throats.  I have been crimping the tar out of my loads after the one bullet pulled and they will cycle but the bolt lacks about 1/16 of an inch closing without applying some additional pressure to the lever.  I would rather get it fixed so it runs like a 73 should run.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Well, if my original 1873 is engraving the rifling on my bullets, maybe that is the norm for a 38-40 chamber. 38-40 was invented by Winchester after all.

Even if you are crimping the tar out of your reloads, and are not using a Factory Crimp Die, I still suggest you get one. I guarantee you that just using a regular crimp die your bullets will start setting back in the cases as they slam backwards in the magazine from the spring.

[Earl Brasse]

There is a good thread over on the SASS Wire with the same 38-40 Win problem.

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209829

Short answer is bullet design.

Original Ideal/Lyman # 40143 style bullet crimped over the ogive (no crimp groove design) with a rapid taper into the bore.
With a full case of BP, no problem, if loaded with smokeless, recoil pushed them back into the case.

There are a couple others that will work listed over there.

The popular for use with smokeless & sold by many commercial casters, "Magma style" with a crimp groove causes heartburn.  (I'm in the same boat)

The choices are have it throat reamed or change bullet design.


Driftwood, interesting to know that original Winchesters have the same "problem" as the Uberti.

With them being the same it looks like it would change the finger pointing from Uberti over to the bullet mold designers.

[BobinIL]

I guess I should have said that yes I am crimping with a Lee FCD.  You are probably right that it is the bullet design but the Magma bullet is the only game in town for commercially avalible bullets with a crimping grove.  I don't mind reaming a few thousanths out of my throat to ensure good function.  My original thought was to shorten the length of the case. 6 of one and 1/2 a dozen of another.

[Dick Dastardly]

Um, I thought this was the Darksiders Den?  So, what black powder load are you trying to run in your 38-40 again?

DD-MDA

[BobinIL]

Enough APP FFF that the bullet just presses it down slightly.

[Cuts Crooked]

Ok guys, this has drifted too much into the smokeless category. Keep it about BP please!

[w44wcf]

Crimp over the front band on this correct, vintage  .38-40 b.p. bullet = no rifling interference
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Quality_Cast_Bullets_it-157160.aspx?CAT=4136

less expensive here....($11.00 per 100)
http://westernbullet.com/lyman40143.html

w44wcf

[john boy]

Western has a $30.00 minimum order

[Navy Six]

I have three Uberti rifles chambered in 38-40. One is a 73 with 24 inch barrel, a 66 rifle with 24 inch barrel, and a 66 short rifle that started out as a 45 Colt but was converted to present configuration by Caley Carson of New Castle Gunsmithing. None of them present the problems you describe. The bullet I use is the age old Lyman 401043 sized to .428 and loaded to 1.585 OAL. After looking at the pictures provided by the responders, I noticed my Lyman bullet has a more tapered ogive so this may be the reason I have never seen rifling marks to any part of the finished cartridge.
On the other hand, I have two Uberti single actions that did appear to have short chambers. Factory ammo would chamber fine but my reloads would not as standard RCBS dies were not pushing the shoulder back far enough on previously fired cases. After reading an article by Dave Scovill in Legacy of Lever Guns, Dave mentioned contacting RCBS for a custom sizing die that is now available as part#55010, 38-40 Scovill FL Sizing Die. Business picked up after that and every one of my reloads have fit in any chamber I own in that caliber---those 5 Ubertis and 2 Colt Single Actions of 1990s vintage. hope some of this helps.

[Blackpowder Burn]

I have an 1888 vintage Winchester '73 chambered in 38-40.  The Accurate Molds 40-185C bullet chambers easily with no interference fit.

[Dick Dastardly]

Um, I thought this was the Darksiders Den?  So, what black powder load are you trying to run in your 38-40 again?

DD-MDA

[w44wcf]

I have an 1888 vintage Winchester '73 chambered in 38-40.  The Accurate Molds 40-185C bullet chambers easily with no interference fit.

That mold is labeled ".38-40 black powder" on the Accurate Molds website.  The nose follows the same profile as the original factory .38-40 black powder bullet which was designed to ride the bore diameter so there is no interference with the lands when chambering. 

w44wcf

[44caliberkid]

I figured out all the Uberti 38-40s have a really tight chamber.  I just seat the bullet deeper so it crimps over the start of the ogive.  That works very well.  Oh, the load is as much 3F or Goex Cowboy as I can fit under it.  That's what I love about BP, who needs a powder measure.