Shortened original 1858s?

[Oregon Bill]

Some years back I was fortunate to guest curate the extensive firearms collection of our local historical society. Among the handguns were several examples of Colt 1851 Navys and 1860 Armys with shortened barrels, some of them cut all the way down to belly guns. I have not, however, run across any cut down original Remington New Model Army percussion guns. Has anyone out there seen a shortened original? Photos would of course  be de luxe.
Just trying to figure out if the 5 1/2-inch barreled Pietta "sheriffs" have any basis in the record.

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings My Good Bill -

it seems one can find any number of conversions that had shortened barrels such as these:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Engraved-Remington-New-Model-Police-Conversion-Revolver.cfm?gun_id=100093786
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Remington-1861-Navy-Conversion-AH2074-.cfm?gun_id=100292069

but here is the single example I could find (of course everyone knows that everything is on the interweb now) for a sale of what is claimed to be an original model 1863 that had been  cut down:
http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Antique-Pistol-Hand-guns/Remington-1863-New-Model-Army-gun-for-sale-gs88411.aspx

Here comes the fun - the ad relates
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"The replacement brass grips are most certainly period replacements, with cut-outs for a shoulder stock. The barrel cut down looks like a period alteration also (the replacement sight is a dovetail type, consistent with sights at the time). Some of the folks back then had the barrel cut down from eight inches to seven inches as it was a better length to effect a quick draw from a holster. It also has a period re-blue. I hope my pictures tell the story. If you'd like to see higher definition photo's please email me and I'll be happy to reply.

All the inspectors marks have either worn away or were buffed off before this model was re-blued (letter 'M' remains on the trigger guard) but the address is there on top of the barrel, its feint, but readable.

Mechanically it's in very good working order, cylinder timing and cylinder lock-up are spot on. The cylinder pin is a little tight and for me the easiest way to remove the cylinder is to undo the loading lever screw and then the cylinder pin comes out easily."
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To me, with the above description, no provenance, and limited photos available it appears snarky at best and could very well have been a de-farb.

yhs
prof marvel

[Oregon Bill]

Prof, I concur with your assessment of the last revolver. The earlier specimen is interesting; thought the converter would attempt to retain ramming capabilities, but many of the cut down Colts I have seen have dispensed with the rammer as well.
Thank you for your post.

[hellgate]

I suspect the 3rd (Gunstar) revolver was an Italian repro. I say so because there is a fairly high step from the barrel up to the top of the frame. If you look at originals the slope where the barrel screws into the frame is pretty smooth transition from the top of the barrel to the frame. The Ubertis are closer to the originals than Pietta & Euroarms. I just don't see it as an original with that much "meat" above the barrel. No wonder the markings were buffed off, I suspect it's a defarb or intentional fake. Just my 2 cents. I wonder what it sold for.

[The Trinity Kid]

I agree with hellgate.  One more little bit though.  Did the NMA actually have the hammer slots between the nipples, or was the the Old Model Army?

--TK

[Professor Marvel]

I agree with hellgate.  One more little bit though.  Did the NMA actually have the hammer slots between the nipples, or was the the Old Model Army?

--TK

Ahhh Weedhopper, the answers you seek are found here:
   http://www.scorrs.org/articles/evolution.htm

"The first large-framed revolvers made by E. Remington & sons were based on "Beals" 1858 patent, collectors call these first revolvers "Beals" models. About 2,000 were made in the army model, and slightly more in the "Navy" model. The army was .44 cal, with an 8" barrel while the navy model was in .36 cal with a 7 3/8" barrel. They differed quite a bit from the "New model 1858" Remington repros we commonly see today.

...

"During the year of 1861/62 other changes were being made. The hammer was given a shorter spur so a person with a small hand could cock it more easily. The frame was cut out in the rear near the face of the cylinder, exposing barrel threads, I presume to help overcome the effects of fouling. The safety notches were added to the rear of the cylinder, and the 61 style of loading lever was done away with.

Again all these changes were not done overnight. So many guns are encountered with some changes and not others. Sometime during the run of 61 models they even changed the direction of twist in the barrel. Early guns had left hand twist, so the inertia of the bullet going down the tube tended to unscrew the barrel. I know it's happened to me. So they kept exactly the same style of rifling, i.e. five groove gain twist, but reversed direction so that the inertia of the bullet tended to tighten the barrel. One of the last things to go was the dovetail front sight.

By the time all these changes were made, they actually had a "new" gun, so therefore, they called it the New Model 1858. Reverting back to the original "Beals" Patten, some of the early new model 1858's had the dovetail cone type sight from the factory, so the last real change was the steel blade that screwed in. About 100,000 of the new models were made, and around total of 30,000 Beals, and 61 models; this includes Navies of all types. "

yhs
prof ( I can has bookmarked links!) marvel

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I am not an expert on Remington revolvers, but I do have a copy of A Study of Colt Conversions, by R. Bruce Mcdowell.  At page 58 there is a New Model converted to 5 shot .46 rimfire, which maintains the unaltered loading lever.  The barrel has been shortened to 6 3/4 inches.  I also have a copy of R. Philip's book, Remington Large-bore Conversion Revolvers. It shows the above mentioned McDowell Remington, and two other shortened conversions from other collections, figures 75 (p.74) and 83 (page 80). The last two have had the loading levers removed.

I had the barrel on my first Pietta New Model shortened to 6 3/4 inches.  It is still a large, heavy military weapon but quite a bit handier than the full length version, without having to do more than shorten the barrel and reset the fore sight.

[Professor Marvel]

My Good TK -
I trust you are not offended by my jesting post:

Ahhh Weedhopper, the answers you seek are found here:
   http://www.scorrs.org/articles/evolution.htm

In Which I parodize the blind old fart monk from the agent TV series "KungFu" ...



Greetings Sir Charles!

I am not an expert on Remington revolvers, but I do have a copy of A Study of Colt Conversions, by R. Bruce Mcdowell.  At page 58 there is a New Model converted to 5 shot .46 rimfire, which maintains the unaltered loading lever.  The barrel has been shortened to 6 3/4 inches.  I also have a copy of R. Philip's book, Remington Large-bore Conversion Revolvers. It shows the above mentioned McDowell Remington, and two other shortened conversions from other collections, figures 75 (p.74) and 83 (page 80). The last two have had the loading levers removed.

Therein is the amazing thing - we can find Remington Navies and  NMA  cartridge conversions that have been bobbed, but cannot seem to find any examples of percussion models so altered. Perhaps it was because the Remmington came into the game later (and thus closer to "cartridge era"), with fewer pistols out in civilian hands than the Colt ?

Or could it be that the Colt, being lighter and more slender, actually lends itself more readily to the "Avenging Angel" treatment?

I must admit, no matter how short I cut a remmy it is still a large belt pistol, but it is easy to make an escetically pleasing  "pocket sized" shortened Colt...

yhs
prof (hacksaw-in-hand) marvel

[Indian Outlaw]

Not exactly on topic, but ...

The Remington Belt Model (both single and double action offerings) was offered in a 5 1/2-inch barrel, though I've seen more with 6 1/2-inch barrels. It was a very sweet pistol, having a smaller frame than the New Model Army.

I have handled an original with a 6 1/2-inch barrel. It was a dream in the hand.

Here's a 5 1/2 incher in double action:

http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=752

A 6 1/2 incher in single action:

http://www.icollector.com/Remington-New-Model-Single-Action-Belt-Cartridge-Conversion-Revolver_i11027113

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The Remington "Belt Model" is a lovely looking revolver. Too bad no one has done a repop'. Perhaps Pietta could do it rather than making imaginary cap'nballers.

16Jul13;  Each Remington revolver had its own frame size, five of them.  Army, Navy, Belt Model, Police & Pocket.  The belt model is smaller & lighter than the Navy but is still a six-shot .36.  A good balance of size to power.  Conversions were in .38.

[Oregon Bill]

Outlaw, love that first one you linked to -- and DA to boot!

[The Trinity Kid]

My Good TK -
I trust you are not offended by my jesting post:

In Which I parodize the blind old fart monk from the agent TV series "KungFu" ...

No offense taken, professor.  interesting information, indeed.

--TK

[Indian Outlaw]

Well, I finally struck gold. This is the first Remington NMA I've seen with a short(ened?) barrel. The original grips have been replaced.

Serial number 72084

http://www.thebatteryrelics.com/rem-1.JPG

http://www.thebatteryrelics.com/rem-2.JPG

http://www.thebatteryrelics.com/rem-3.JPG

[Indian Outlaw]

Wow. Found another one. 6 1/2-inch barrel?

http://www.icollector.com/Remington-1858-New-Model-revolver-with-period-holster-clipped-barrel-many-years-ago-butt-of-th_i14438405

[Oregon Bill]

Great research Outlaw. Those sure are handsome sixguns.

[The Trinity Kid]

I found an Original shortened Remington at a museum in Yellowstone, but they wouldn't let me take a picture   The Ranger said it belonged to one of the explorers in the Hayden(?) expedition in 1872.  It was .44 judging by the hole in the end, and had about a six inch tube.  Sad that they wouldn't let let me take a picture.

--TK

[The Trinity Kid]

Anybody got $600?  I found an Old Model Army with a 4 7/8" barrel.   I tried taking pictures, but the salesman chewed me out and made me delete them  

--TK