.32 Long Colt ,Need Help

[w44wcf]

Chev William,
Glad to see that your cases arived aok.

JimBob,
Thank you for the pic of the decapping pin. 

Broken Arrow,
The larger diameter ring on the decapping pin that JimBob kindly posted a pic of is to expand the case mouth, removing the crimp from the previous loading. It probably measures ..302" or so....

As to the bullet from the tool, if you make some bullets, please post a pic. As ndnchf indicated the .32 Long Outsid Lubed 299153 has a .299 + - heel x .145 + - in length.

w44wcf

[w44wcf]

I decided to load some b.p. rounds today using the period correct 12 gr. black powder charge and the Accurate 31-090S outside lubed bullet.

Since Swiss is about 10% more dense than most other b.p.'s,  12 grs dumped slowly from the pan fits into the U.M.C.  headstamped cases with just a bit of room to spare.  The bullet is then seated to compress the charge.

Now to lube the bullets with SPG and wait patiently for a decent day to test.  Previous testing with the 311245 bullet (far left) and 12 grs. Swiss FFFG turned up 1,160 f.p.s. with pretty good accuracy and a miniature robust sound.  . 



w44wcf

[Chev. William]

w44wcf,
Thank you for the good comments.
Would you identify the caes lengths and bullet designs shown in the photo you posted of the 12 grain Swiss charge in the .78" long case that are in the ammo case, from Left to Right as they seem to have varying overall lengths, depending upon bullet design.

The Frustrating part of my week has been The weather here is Windy but warm, a 'good day' for going to the Range to see if loads work in spite of th.e wind.  The 'flip side' is I still do not have a test rifle to use, and have no current idea when I will have one from my gunsmith.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w44wcf]

Chev. William,
You are most welcome.  All of the cases in that box are .78" long. The rounds in the 1st row to the left are loaded with the 311245 bullet over 12 grs. Swiss 3F.  They were the only ones remaining after the last loading in addition to the 3 in the front of row 4. Those are also the 311245 but with a flat nose. The rest are all loaded with the 31-090S bullet.

A pic of the 311245 loaded cartridge is on page 2.  Now that I have the 31-090S I expect to retire the 311245 since it requires extra work to form the heel after the bullet is cast.

We'll just have to be patient and wait for "ideal" shooting weather. Hopefully your gunsmith will have your rifle(s) in your hands in the near future.....

w44wcf

[pony express]

Ran across something interesting:
http://hlebooks.com/32rfkit/prices.htm

Similar idea to the Dixie rimfire cases, but he has dies too, and it used heel base bullets, instead of a round ball. There's also reloading kits for pinfire revolvers and shotguns, too.

[w44wcf]

.32 LONG RIFLE CARTRIDGE / BULLET
The .32 Long Rifle bullet was the Ideal 299155. It was an inside lubricated hollow based bullet to be used in the .91" case.
I managed to find a small qty and decided to load them over the original factory 13 gr. powder charge (see illustration on page 1).

POWDER COMPRESSION
I found that it took close to .20" of powder compression on the 13 gr (Swiss FFFG) charge to allow the bullet to seat to the proper depth in a modern R-P .32 L.C. case.  In an earlier SHBP (solid head button pocket) U.M.C. case, compression was less at .14".

BUMPING UP THE BULLET TO FIT THE FIRED CASE
I was using fired cases and the bullet (.300") was a slip fit so after finger seating the bullet on the compressed powder charge, I ran the cartridge into the seating die and ran the seating stem down to touch the bullet. I then backed off the ram, turned the seating stem in 1/4 turn or so, which compressed the soft bullet, bumping it up to be a snug fit in the case.  

Now to get to the range and give them a try ....... that is when the weather moderates a bit ....



w44wcf

[Chev. William]

.32 LONG RIFLE CARTRIDGE / BULLET
The .32 Long Rifle bullet was the Ideal 299155. It was an inside lubricated hollow based bullet to be used in the .91" case.
I managed to find a small qty and decided to load them over the original factory 13 gr. powder charge (see illustration on page 1).

POWDER COMPRESSION
I found that it took close to .20" of powder compression on the 13 gr (Swiss FFFG) charge to allow the bullet to seat to the proper depth in a modern R-P .32 L.C. case.  In an earlier SHBP (solid head button pocket) U.M.C. case, compression was less at .14".

BUMPING UP THE BULLET TO FIT THE FIRED CASE
I was using fired cases and the bullet (.300") was a slip fit so after finger seating the bullet on the compressed powder charge, I ran the cartridge into the seating die and ran the seating stem down to touch the bullet. I then backed off the ram, turned the seating stem in 1/4 turn or so, which compressed the soft bullet, bumping it up to be a snug fit in the case.  

Now to get to the range and give them a try ....... that is when the weather moderates a bit ....



w44wcf

w44wcf,
Thank you for sharing this information, and I hope you will take both cartridges loaded with the same charge adn each of the two bullets (299153 and 299155) with you for both velocity and accuracy comparison firing when you go to the range.

It would be nice to have modern comparisons information to either confirm or refute the 'rumors and advertizing copy reports' we have had from the past.

Also, would you mind if I use the information that has been posted in the past about the various .32 cartridges to compile a dimensions and properties list, along with notes on history and original loadings?  My intent is to get the Cartridges documented sufficiently to be entered into the "AmmoGuide Interactive (AG) Master Cartridge Database" for all to be able to reference on line.  To date the List Moderator has added the .32 Short RF, .32 Long RF, .32 Long Colt, and .25 Stevens short and Long to the Master listings after my request and submission of compiled information.
Even tough AG does not currently list BP loadings in their recommendations, they did include the original BP loadings in their history notes with the cartridge dimension drawings.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w44wcf]

Chev. William,
You are most welcome. It seems that whenever I undertake a vintage cartridge project, I try to replicate what factory cartridges were offered back in the day.....like stepping back in time so to speak.  Prior to the .32 Long Colt, there were the 2 famous Winchester caftridges:
.44 W.C.F. / .44-40  http://www.leverguns.com/articles/44wcf.htm
.30 W.C.F. / .30-30  http://www.leverguns.com/articles/3030history.htm

Yes you may copy and reproduce any of the information I have presented. I am all for preserving and sharing information about our historic cartridges.   Thank you fo your efforts in that regard.

I previously tested the 299153 / 12 grs. b.p. (Swiss FFFG) / .78" case which is a replication of the original outside lubed cartridge.
Cataloged velocity of the original cartridge was 1,075 f.p.s. according to 1 reference I found.   The 12 / Swiss FFFG pushed the 90 gr bullet to 1,160 f.p.s. meaning that the Swiss powder has a higher ballistic strength than the original b.p.  By comparison, 11 / Swiss produced 1,091 f.p.s. average which is closer to the cataloged ballistics.

The reason for using Swiss is two fold. First, many shots can be fired without fouling out the barrel, and second, 12 grs. by weight of Goex or similar powders are less dense and 12 grs. by weight will overflow the .78" case.

I have never found any catalog ballistics for the .32 Long Rifle cartridge.  It will be awhile before I can check them for velocity since that is a fair weather undertaking......

w44wcf  

       

[JimBob]

"I have never found any catalog ballistics for the .32 Long Rifle cartridge.  It will be awhile before I can check them for velocity since that is a fair weather undertaking......"


The Peters 1914 catalog lists the following-

.32 Long Colt -BP
82 grain bullet

Muzzle   690 FPS

100 yd.    610

.32 Long Colt-Smokeless
82 grain bullet

Muzzle  720 FPS

100 yd.  636


Photo bucket is down or I would have posted that page out of the catalog.

[Chev. William]

The Peters information listed in the catalog photo indicates it is for a PISTOL barrel of 6" length, not a Rifle barrel.  From What I remember, velocity go up somewhere between 25 and 50 fps for each inch of barrel length increase.
Using an estimated Rifle barrel of 22" then the increase in length would be 16 inches.
16 inches times 25fps looks like about a 400fps increase or somewhere between 1090fps and 1120fps MV.
16 inches times 50fps looks like about a 800fps increase or somewhere between 1490fps and 1520fps MV.
It has been reported Marlin indicated about 1100fps to 1200fps for the .32 Long Rifle fired from their rifles of about 24 inch Barrel length.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

.32 LONG RIFLE CARTRIDGE / BULLET
The .32 Long Rifle bullet was the Ideal 299155. It was an inside lubricated hollow based bullet to be used in the .91" case.
I managed to find a small qty and decided to load them over the original factory 13 gr. powder charge (see illustration on page 1).

POWDER COMPRESSION
I found that it took close to .20" of powder compression on the 13 gr (Swiss FFFG) charge to allow the bullet to seat to the proper depth in a modern R-P .32 L.C. case.  In an earlier SHBP (solid head button pocket) U.M.C. case, compression was less at .14".

BUMPING UP THE BULLET TO FIT THE FIRED CASE
I was using fired cases and the bullet (.300") was a slip fit so after finger seating the bullet on the compressed powder charge, I ran the cartridge into the seating die and ran the seating stem down to touch the bullet. I then backed off the ram, turned the seating stem in 1/4 turn or so, which compressed the soft bullet, bumping it up to be a snug fit in the case.  

Now to get to the range and give them a try ....... that is when the weather moderates a bit ....



w44wcf

W44wcf,
What would happen if you used the 299155 bullet without first compressing the charge?
Would some of the powder fill the hollow base during seating and possibly expand the bullet skirt to grip the case wall?
Or am I "over thinking" this detail?
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[JimBob]

The Peters information listed in the catalog photo indicates it is for a PISTOL barrel of 6" length, not a Rifle barrel.

You'll find most of the old catalogs list the .32LC as primarily a PISTOL cartridge with a passing mention it also fits the Marlin rifles in that chambering.Of the catalogs I have access to that had ballistic tables it is only listed under pistol cartridges.

Here's the Remington chart from Ideal Handbook 28.They are significantly different with a shorter test barrel.

[w44wcf]

Chev. William,
One could only compress the b.p. charge very little with the soft lead bullet......probably just enough to expand the base to fit the as fired case. Any more than that would distort the bullet.  U.M.C. and other ammunition companies would have had to precompress the 13 gr b.p. charge in order to make room for the soft lead bullet.  Well compressed charges foul less in the barrel.

JimBob,
Thank you very much for the catalog illustrations. As you indicated, most all data was taken in pistol barrels.

The only reference I have found for the .32 L.C. black powder cartridge in a rifle was in the 1932 Shooters bible. The 12 gr. charge of b.p. pushed the 90 gr. outside lubed bullet to 1,075 f.p.s.

The 1941 WInchester catalog shows the smokeless loading at 945 f.p.s. in a rifle.

I guess I'll just have to wait to see what the .32 Long Rifle equivalent cartridge will do in the Marlin......

Thank you again for the catalog illustrations.

w44wcf   

[Chev. William]

Chev. William,
One could only compress the b.p. charge very little with the soft lead bullet......probably just enough to expand the base to fit the as fired case. Any more than that would distort the bullet.  U.M.C. and other ammunition companies would have had to precompress the 13 gr b.p. charge in order to make room for the soft lead bullet.  Well compressed charges foul less in the barrel.

w44wcf  

Thank you for the reply to my questions about compression.  I was thinking the Hollow base would be leaving an 'air gap' between BP and Bullet but from your reply I guess that is not a concern.  BUT, what would happen if you compressed the BP using a 'hollow base' punch?  E.G: compressing the BP so a semi-conical tip was left that matched the hollow base of the bullet and then the bullet was seated in contact with the BP?  Would this provide better or worse performance?

Just trying to learn the 'quirks' of BP loadings for the future.
Best Regards,
Chev. william

[w44wcf]

...according to some Rem-Umc headstamped .32 L.C. I.L. cartridges I recently dissected.  Perhaps that happened around 1920 when the b.p.  charge was no longer shown in the Rem-Umc catalogs (?). So the question would be ...... does the 10 gr. powder charge replicate the ballistics produced by the 13 gr. charge?  That would be the case if the powder had a higher ballistic strength. More testing........ 

Chev. William,
The 10 gr. b.p. charge would allow the seating of the hollow based bullet without precompressing the powder charge according to a test I ran today.

Interesting thought regarding a hollow compression pin but I think the powder stack would crumple since there is nothing holding it in place (like the inside diameter of the case.)

w44wcf

[Chev. William]

I purchased a 'used' Winchester Model 70 Stainless Steel 'Classic Sporter' contour Barrel in .300 Winchester Magnum Caliber on Ebay. It is 25-7/8 inch long and has the Model 70 Threaded Tenon.

I am thinking of cutting it down and chambering it in one of the .32 RF/CF size cartridges, perhaps the .32 Extra Long, either RF or CF, or the .32 Long. I believe that the nominal .300 bore and .308 Groove diameters will work with these cartridges as two Stevens Original barrels I own slug .298" Bore and .303" or .304" Grooves for a marked .32 Long cartridge which used a .311" to .316" Lead bullet.

The action choices so far are:
1894 Stevens Favorite upgraded with higher strength screws and pins.
1915 Stevens Favorite with oversized and high strength Breech Block, Screws and Pins.
Possible Stevens Model 44 action based upon a used stripped receiver (another Ebay Purchase).

What do the members think of this project?
Any Low Cost Actions suggestions?
Alternative Cartridge for this Bore/Groove/Twist?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Is the twist of this barrel suitable for 90-100 grain bullets?  If so, it should work.

[Chev. William]

Is the twist of this barrel suitable for 90-100 grain bullets?  If so, it should work.

I have not slugged the barrel yet to verify its internal dimensions nor tried to measure the actual twist.
However, the .300 Win. Mag. is listed as using a 1 turn in 10" Twist.  I would guess this would be fast enough for something over 100 grain bullets.  I will need to inspect the 'stripped' Model 44 receiver after it arrives, it should be going to my Gunsmith's shop to comply with California Regulations on Transfers, and I should be able to look at it there but will not be able to bring it home until after the regulation waiting period.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

The Winchester '70' barrel slugs .299" bore/.310" Groove diameters using a .315" diameter round ball and a Dial Caliper.

It looks like it was within Specs for the original caliber and is in the 'ballpark' for the intended cartridge Range.

Now to wait for the receiver to arrive.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

That'll work.  Would like to see some pics of your projects when you get a chance.  As they say, a picture says a 1000 words!