.32 Long Colt ,Need Help

[ndnchf]

Thanks Chev - very interesting.  My 299153 bullets weigh 87.5gr.  With the 4.5gr load that puts them around 990fps.   

[Chev. William]

Thanks Chev - very interesting.  My 299153 bullets weigh 87.5gr.  With the 4.5gr load that puts them around 990fps.   

You'r welcome.
That weight of bullet is interesting, I wonder if it is a difference in alloys?
I weighed three samples of 299153 form a batch I got from Jack Harrison and my three came out 86gr to 86.1gr each.
I used my balance type powder scale fo rthe weightings.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

I just weighed 3 more bullets on my RCBS balance scale.  They came out 87.5gr, 87.3gr and 87.2gr. I bought mine from him at least 5 or 6 years ago.  I suspect he's using wheel weights that vary considerably in composition. Or he's adding more tin now.

[w44wcf]

Adirondacker,
Neat cartridge boxes. Thank you for the look back into the past......

Regarding using the .32 LC at ranges past 100 yards........
As we know the .22 LR was initially developed for 200 yard competition back in about 1888.  I have shot the .22LR at that distance enough times to know that it shoots well enough to hit a 4" bull pretty consistently if the conditions are right and I do my part.

The velocity of the factory .32 LC is just a bit shy of the .22 LR match cartridges although not as accurate.......so, a few years ago on one of my trips to the High Power Silhouette Range in Ridgway, PA, I too k the 1892 Marlin along.  It has a tang sight so I knew I would have enough elevation to easily reach the first target (steel chicken) located at 200 meters (217 yds).

Thankfully, I had a spotter that could spot the bullet impacts. I had consulted a ballistics table to determine the amount of elevation needed at that distance so it only took a few shots to get the elevation "on".  As I recall, I fired about 10 rounds and actually hit 3 chickens (5 1/2" body diameter)    What fun!

I'm heading to Ridgway again Oct 12 & 13 for the Lever Action Jubilee and I'm going to take the '92 along for a bit more longer range fun.

200 meters first target


w44wcf

   

[w44wcf]

ndnchf,
Thank you for the range report using 2400.

Chev William,
Neat projects.  Thank you for the data on 2400.

w44wcf

[Chev. William]

September 17th, while I was outside with the dogs, I checked what the Black Powder (BP) capacity of my .912" to .914" long .32 Long Colt cases is.
It turns out that level full to the rim they hold about 11.7 grains of loose fffg GOEX; and if space is left to seat one of the heeled bullets without compression, they hold about 10.7 grains of loose fffg BP.

I would surmise that around 11.0 grains would fit with some compression, and perhaps slightly more with heavy compression.

Reportedly, the .32 Long RF originally had 18 grains of BP and the .32 Long Colt CF had 12 grains of BP. I guess the RF round gets its extra capacity from not having a separate primer and the CF round may have been a "Balloon Case" design.  Update by W44wcf: Catalog load data indicates .78 long .32 Long RF held 14 grains BP with compression behind the 90gr heeled bullet and .78 long .32 Long Colt held 12 grains in a balloon case behind a "299153" heeled bullet or 13 grains with the Later inside lubed 83gr Hollow base bullet (.32 Long rifle) if I understand w44wcf's later post

I have also loaded a .32 case trimmed to .912"-.914" with 10 grains of BP and the Jack Harrison "299153" bullet.  I will try it for fit when I get the rifle back from the Gunsmith.

Something to think about for the future.

Later, I tried a .605" to .610" long Magtech .25ACP case and found it will hold 5.0 grains of Loose, not compressed, fffg GOEX Black Powder (BP) level with the mouth rim and about 4.0 grains of BP with space to seat a heeled bullet without compression, possibly slightly more with compression.

As far as I know, the .25ACP was never commercially loaded with BP as it was introduced with the Colt Pocket Pistol after Smokeless powder was developed.

I did load ten .25ACP cases with 4.0 grains of BP and seated some Sample "Ranch dog" 50gr Lead RFN I received from "Carolina Cast bullets" to a cartridge overall length of .850".  They will be tried in my .25 Stevens chambered Stevens Favorite when I get it back from the Gunsmith also.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
The additions are to consolidate information so as to try to avoid misdirection/misunderstanding.

[ndnchf]

Chev - FWIW, my .32 LC cases are trimmed to .775" because that's what works with jack's bullets in my RRB chamber. I loaded 8.2gr by weight of Goex FFFG and that just touched the bottom of the heel when seated.  I could add a bit more if I compressed it.  This load shot very well.

[Chev. William]

From what you say, I may have loaded them too long, Ouch!  I thought I had measured properly to get the front of the first driving band at 1.011" or 1.012" from the base of the cartridge, which is what my .32 Long RF chamber seems to measure (used a trimmed down .300 Sherwood to find where the trimmed case stopped with the base flush with the breech end of the barrel.  I will need to go to my Gunsmith and see if the loaded cartridges actually fit or are too long.  The loaded cartridges are with the Gunsmith along with the barrel.

Oh well, it is about time to check on progress anyway.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Chev - maybe, maybe not.  I  expect there was a lot of variation in chambers among different manufacturers.  I put a 299153 bullet into a standard length .32LC empty case and put it into the chamber.  It wouldn't go all the way in.  So I started trimming the case until it would fully enter the chamber and the block would close.  I then shortened it .005" more and ended up with .775".  This bullet is oversize at .315". my groove diameter is .308".  I haven't tried it yet, but I suspect that with a bullet sized to .309", it would go deeper into the chamber and I could use a longer case. 

[w44wcf]

Original .32 L C b.p. cartridges (.78" long / 90 gr. bullet) had up to .14" of compression according to some originals I dissected.  The balloon head cases held about .7 grs. more powder than modern R-P brass trimmed to .78" length.
 
Not all b.p.'s have the same  density so the actual amount by weight can vary a bit with the same volume. For instance, Goex is about 10% lighter in weight by volume than some of the early b.p.'s.  Currently produced Swiss is pretty identical to those powders.

Technically speaking, if one fills the .78" case completely full and seats a 299153 bullet, the amount of compression will = the original cartridge.

According to the early catalogs the outside lubed cartridge (.78" / 299153) contained 12 grs of b.p. and the inside lubed cartridge aka .32 Long Rifle, contained 13 grs of powder under the 83 gr hollow base bullet.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

W44wcf, you were correct in your comments about my loaded length.  I went to the Gunsmith's and we checked the loads in my chamber, They would not enter.
Then I measured the bullet diameter as loaded and found them to be about .318" to .319" diameter over the drive bands.
I took them home and ran the rounds through the sizer die, now the bullets were the same diameter as  the case.
Went back to the Gunsmith's and we tried them in the chamber again, this time they would enter but not go flush with the Breech Face.  I used a Dial Caliper to measure how much they extended and got from 0.080" to 0.088" "proud' of the breech face of the barrel and chamber, measuring 8 rounds.
Took the rounds home again and ran them through the Crimper die and they came out .298" bullet diameter.
Back at the Gunsmith's they now go into the chamber flush with the breech face.

Now I know they will shoot badly, being smaller than the .299" bore, but I think they will still function as test rounds for the Gunsmith's immediate needs.

I will need to load some more cases after trimming them shorter.
Calculations:
present case length =.912" to .914".
Loaded rounds with the "299153" bullet sit proud of the breech face by between .080" and .088".
Subtracting, It looks like I need to get the case length down to at least .832", but better yet, to about .826" as a maximum case length for this bullet in my chamber. 

Also, after loading, I will need to run them through the sizing die to get the Drive bands down to the same diameter as the case.

An interesting exercise in practical 'try and fit' process.

Now thinking of possible variations in bullets, I believe I could trim my  cases to between .800" and  .810" inch, For My Chamber, and have no problems with the rounds going in flush with the Barrel Breech Face. 
Of course these cases will be 'short' for the 90gr "31-090A" bullets but should still be 'shoot-able' with useful accuracy, so I will not trim all my remaining cases yet.

Some of the problem was of my own making, due to miss-measured bullets and leaving cases long as possible to allow more 'life' to them, figuring I could always trim them shorter if the mouth starts to split or gets damaged some other way.
Some of the problem was not having the chamber to try first loads in immediately to hand.
And some of the problem was my desire to fit my Chamber and minimize trimming of case length from as supplied.

But then again this is a 'learning experiment' anyway, so nothing is 'lost' in the process.

Best Regards,
Chev William

[w44wcf]

Chev William,
As you said, "An interesting exercise in practical 'try and fit' process." The driving band width on the 31-090A is .10" vs .13" on the 299153 driving bands width so the 299153 extends .03" further into the chamber. As I recall your rifle's groove diameter is a tight .305" so possibly a 31-090A bullet with a driving band of .307" would fit aok with the standard .91" case.

My Marlin's chamber, is 1.07" deep so the bullet jump to the lands with the 31-090A is .06". 

I'll have some test bullets to you for tryout hopefully within the next week or two.

w44wcf

[Chev. William]

Chev William,
As you said, "An interesting exercise in practical 'try and fit' process." The driving band width on the 31-090A is .10" vs .13" on the 299153 driving bands width so the 299153 extends .03" further into the chamber. As I recall your rifle's groove diameter is a tight .305" so possibly a 31-090A bullet with a driving band of .307" would fit aok with the standard .91" case.

My Marlin's chamber, is 1.07" deep so the bullet jump to the lands with the 31-090A is .06". 

I'll have some test bullets to you for tryout hopefully within the next week or two.

w44wcf

W44wcf,
Thank you for the samples in advance and also thank you for the measurements of the driving band lengths of the two bullets.

I noticed on the loaded "299153" bullets that I ran through the Crimper Die that the 'wiped' area of the slug seems to be about .2" long and starts somewhat forward of the front driving band as you measure and as I compare to a 'unsized' sample bullet of the same lot.  The unsized bullet seems to measure about .30" in the area where the Bullet that has been run through the Crimper Die shows the 'wiped' zone.  Note that I "removed the seater stem" to do this part of the 'resizing'.
Would this be part of the "nose Contour" of the "299153" or is this a 'swell' before the first driving band?

From my latest experience with the "299153" bullet in my cases, I know trying to just run the 'front' part of the loaded bullet into the reduced section of the Crimper Die results in the bullet remaining in the Die when the cartridge and Ram is lowered.
I actually had to go far enough to roll crimp the case mouth slightly before the bullet would come out of the die with the rest of the cartridge.

Now I am wondering if there is some "happy medium" settings of my Crimper/Seater die that would allow me to size the "299153" bullet "nose area" or possibly this and the first driving band and leave the Second driving band and the case mouth alone?  The worry is that the partial resized bullet will stay in the Die instead of coming out with the case.

What are your thoughts and experience with this "problem"?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Chev - maybe I missed it, but what kind of crimp die are you using?

[Chev. William]

Chev - maybe I missed it, but what kind of crimp die are you using?

The Crimp/Searing Die is one of the two die set I bought from Hollywood Engineering and is for the .32 Long Colt.
I reported before that the Sizing die of this set has a Carbide insert that is ground out to size rounds to fit my Chamber (.316") diameter rather than the nominal cartridge standard (.315") diameter.
This Crimp/Seating die is still of standard dimensions for the .32 Long Colt Cartridge of the later, inside lubed bullet variety, and is of Hardened Steel construction and has a threaded seater insert also of Steel, probably also Heat treated, that is removable and adjustable with a locking Threaded ring to match.

I have used the seater portion of its function on the original "29953" bullets by adjusting the seater stem down far enough that the bullet did not enter the Crimp portion of the die with success.

If there is a commercially available "Factory Crimp Die" made to use with either the "299153" bullet or the "31-090A" bullet in our .32 Long Colt Cartridge loading, I have not yet heard of it.
I would think that something like the Lee Collette Design would be necessary to allow crimping after the 'oversize' bullet is through the top of the 'Collette' but there is the problem of what case length should it be made to properly crimp?  The Lee design needs the base of the Collette to hit the top of the shell holder when the neck of the case to be crimped is positioned at the proper level of the 'finger tips' that actually do the crimp.
As the two different bullet designs under discussion would fit at least two different case lengths to fit the "Standard" .32 Long Colt Chamber, and several more lengths to fit individual existing chamber lengths, how would a commercial supplier provide for the variations?

Food for thought and discussion.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Thanks for the details Chev.  I've found when I reload the fired Winchester .32SC brass, the 299153 bullets are a tight fit in the unsized case and I need to use the seater die to put them in place.  Once loaded they are tight and do not need an further crimping.  Reloading my .32 LC cases I am not so lucky.  The fired cases have a mouth opening of about .304" so the 299153 with a heel of .298-.299" is loose.  I sure could use a miracle crimp die for these.  But in the interim, I use the loctite crimp which works quite well.  The .32 LC brass I'm using is 1960s era fired factory ammo, Remington green box.  The mouth wall thickness is .008".  When I get to the point where I can use reformed .32 S&W long brass, things will be different as that brass is about .012" thick at the mouth.  I may not need to size or crimp at all.

What an adventure this is!

[pony express]

I have a modified Lee Collet die for .38 short or long colt, from Old West Bullet Molds that works well. You might contact him and see if makes one for the .32 cases.

http://www.oldwestbulletmoulds.com/

You will have to E-mail him at the address on the web page, there's no online catalog.

[Chev. William]

Thanks for the details Chev.  I've found when I reload the fired Winchester .32SC brass, the 299153 bullets are a tight fit in the unsized case and I need to use the seater die to put them in place.  Once loaded they are tight and do not need an further crimping.  Reloading my .32 LC cases I am not so lucky.  The fired cases have a mouth opening of about .304" so the 299153 with a heel of .298-.299" is loose.  I sure could use a miracle crimp die for these.  But in the interim, I use the loctite crimp which works quite well.  The .32 LC brass I'm using is 1960s era fired factory ammo, Remington green box.  The mouth wall thickness is .008".  When I get to the point where I can use reformed .32 S&W long brass, things will be different as that brass is about .012" thick at the mouth.  I may not need to size or crimp at all.

What an adventure this is!

It's what keeps life interesting and the mind active.
I have a work call from my Union, 0600 Call Time Sept 26th.  It is good with the world today.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I have a modified Lee Collet die for .38 short or long colt, from Old West Bullet Molds that works well. You might contact him and see if makes one for the .32 cases.

http://www.oldwestbulletmoulds.com/

You will have to E-mail him at the address on the web page, there's no online catalog.

Thank you for the suggestion, I sent an email to Them Sept 25th.
BEst Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

It would be sweet if he can make a .32 collet crimper.  Chev - Let us know what you find out.