.32 Long Colt ,Need Help

[Chev. William]

I am able to attach .jpg files to emails sent from my personal Web Mail account but I have not been able to get photos to attach to Forum Posts nor Forum based PM messages so far.
If you would like to see what i have photos of please send me a Email address I can transfer to my Web Mail account and send an email with the attachments.
I have had successful email interchanges with Uscra112 via this method.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Yesterday my latest purchase arrived at my Gunsmith's Shop and I went in to fill out the California Paperwork for it and to look it over.
It is a Stevens "Model 44" 'Trigger Housing' I bought in an auction on Ebay.
The piece is basically strip[ped except for the Trigger Spring', its Anchor Screw', the 'Anchor Screw' for the Mains Spring, and two 'Plug Screws in the upper tang where a sight was supposed to be mounted.  The exterior surfaces have been 'cleaned' but the interior is rusty.
The two holes for the Breech block and Lever pivots seem to be bored through with slight counter-bores on both ends and no threads showing.  The two holes for Trigger and Hammer do have threads on one side.
There are Threads in the Barrel Socket like a 'Model 44' Barrel I have would fit.
I could not tell if there were threads in the Barrel Retention Screw hole as it was too 'crudded' up to tell.
I will have to wait until after 2/18 to pick it up and start cleaning and inspecting it in earnest.

In the mean time I have some more research to do.

Best Regards,
Chev. William.

[Chev. William]

Over the last few days, 'uncra112' and I have been exchanging off forum emails about the internals of the Stevens 44 and Stevens Favorites with the purpose of documenting usable dimensions for making replacement parts to fit these old receivers we have tah tare 'short' internals.

So far we have about half of the Breech block information needed and I have been converting them into working  AutoCAD 2000 drawings.

From information I received in a Telephone call to CPA, they have castings for the Lever, un-machined, and uncra112 compared a 44-1/2 and a 44 lever he has on hand and found that the two could be machined from the same casting, with the 44 pivot hole larger than the 44-1/2 one.

From his measurements, my layout indicates that the firing pin hole in the Breech Block is bored on a 17 degree angle to the horizontal, and that either the 44 contour or the 417 contour could be made from a common 'near net shape' blank and that by making the rear face radius slightly larger, we could make the replacement Block better contact the back of the Breech Block slot when in 'Battery" to provide some added support.

Also, from photos of the later "Safety Hammer" we can work out dimensions for a Hammer replacement that would support he rear of the breech Block against rotation out of 'Battery' upon firing of a cartridge.

this is an on-going project between us and I hope it will lead to my being able to document the internal parts of the 44 and to eventually making parts for my Receiver, which came stripped.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[JimBob]

Chev. William,
One could only compress the b.p. charge very little with the soft lead bullet......probably just enough to expand the base to fit the as fired case. Any more than that would distort the bullet.  U.M.C. and other ammunition companies would have had to precompress the 13 gr b.p. charge in order to make room for the soft lead bullet.  Well compressed charges foul less in the barrel.

JimBob,
Thank you very much for the catalog illustrations. As you indicated, most all data was taken in pistol barrels.

The only reference I have found for the .32 L.C. black powder cartridge in a rifle was in the 1932 Shooters bible. The 12 gr. charge of b.p. pushed the 90 gr. outside lubed bullet to 1,075 f.p.s.

The 1941 WInchester catalog shows the smokeless loading at 945 f.p.s. in a rifle.

I guess I'll just have to wait to see what the .32 Long Rifle equivalent cartridge will do in the Marlin......

Thank you again for the catalog illustrations.

w44wcf  

This from an Eley/Kynoch catalog-

.320 Long (Rifle) 26 1/2 inch barrel-8 grains BP-80 grain bullet.

Muzzle-1100 fps

50 Yards-990 fps

100 Yards-910 fps

[Chev. William]

I finally was able to post photos of my Stevens 1915 Favorite Action with the used Butt Stock I am fitting it to (still not finished) and six of my Barrels for the Stevens Favorite Actions on the "1894 Stevens Favorite . . . . . ." Thread.

Please look and comment.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w44wcf]

JimBob,
Thank you for that information. Interesting that only 8 grs. of b.p. produced 1,100 f.p.s. They must have used 4F powder.

I have a small amount of "Fiocchi" headstamped .320 rounds.  These are like the illustration in your post (.78" case / o.l. bullet).  I dissected a couple and found  they contained 8 grs. of a very fine black powder. I have one round of R.W.S. .320 and putting it on the scale it weighed pretty much the same as the Fiocchi rounds.

So....it looks like the European Standard for the .320 (.32 Long Colt) b.p. loading just might have been 8 grs. of 4F b.p.

Also interesting is that the outside lubed bullet they contained also had a deep hollow base. The American bullet equivalent, the 299153 which is a replication of the standard bullet as was loaded by Winchester, UMC, etc., has a solid base.

Thank you again for the interesting history.....

w44wcf

[w44wcf]

Chev. William,
I did a search and could not find the thread. Is it the same photo you posted on the .32 rimfire thread at castboolits?
post 212  http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?147224-reloadable-32-rimfire-brass/page11

If so,  very nice! 

[Chev. William]

W44wcf,

Thank you for the kind comments.  As you can see, it is a 'work in Progress' and is now waiting for time with my Gunsmith to verify it is safe to fire as I am just an 'amateur at the work'.

Yes, the three photos are the same.  

Hmmm..... On CAS City Home Page I select "Forums"; then when the 'Forums' page opens, I select "Search"; that opens a 'search forums' box in which I enter "Stevens Favorite" and select the search; that brings up a list of Threads adn I look for the Thread title "1894 Stevens favorite, Calibers .22,.25,.32, others, either RF or CF".

IF you don't see the above thread title I would suggest you verify you are signed in to the Web Site.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w44wcf]

Chev. William,
That is what I did but by being in somewhat of a hurry, I probably made a mistake in the spelling.......

Making .32 Rimfire ammunition....
Excellent thread here....
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?147224-reloadable-32-rimfire-brass

w44wcf

[Chev. William]

The 'Rim Fire' ideas of using a .22 Caliber Blank or a Powder Tool Load in an Adapter made form a CF case is a very good one to get the old RF actions "Speaking" again without major changes to them such as converting a scarce Breech Block from RF to CF.

It would seem that the same ideas used for .32 RF could be applied to .25 RF calibers also.  In both calibers you start with presently available CF cases, then reform them down to the diameters of the old RF cases (.318" dia. for the .32 Cal. and .276" dia. for the .25 Cal.) then the reformed case could be drilled/reamed in the head to take a .22 Cal Blank cartridge.  The Remaining rim edge might need thinning in one area to allow the firing pin to fully crush the .22 rim but that would still be a less invasive job than the Full RF to CF conversion process.

In relation to the Stevens Favorite Actions, both 1894 and 1915 models, the .22 Rim Fire firing Pin location MAY be useable for adapters made to use all three of the Powder Tool Load (PTL) Calibers presently available to general purchase (the .22, .25, and .27 calibers in grades 2 through 4 are generally available and some places also sell grade 5 and 6 PTL blanks).  There are also the .22 Caliber 'Flash', 'Starter', and 'Dog Training' blanks sold in some areas that might be useable.

The opening of .22 Cal cartridges, removing the propellant and projectile or wad, then using Black Powder as a small booster under a Smokeless Powder charge is also useful knowledge and techniques to keep in mind.

From the Reported 'Range Results' these ideas are all valid approaches, at least in the described .32 Short, .32 Long, .32 Long rifle, and .32 Extra Long range that has been tried so far.  Grade 2 PTL are reported ot give below Published equivalent performance in the .32 long or longer cases.  Grade 3 PTL are reported to come close to matching published performance in the .32 Long case.  These are all with roughly 90 grain bullets (reportedly 87 to 92 grains).   Also reported that useful performance was measured with a .315" diameter Round Ball over a Grade 2 PTL Blank in a .32 Long size adapter case.

Commercially available Adapters use offset .22 'Acorn' Blanks as primers for charges of Black Powder behind either round ball or Cast Lead bullets, so this is a process found 'marketable' both in the US and in Europe, and possibly in Canada, by Government Regulators.

NOTE: There is a difference in the Heel diameters accepted by different rifle chambers. One group of .32 users need .299" heel diameter bullets due to 'tight' chambers, while another group is using .302" or larger diameter heel bullets due to larger chambers.

My personal projects will advance greatly by these findings but I still need to make converted Breech Blocks as I also need to continue development of my Center Fire alternatives for the .25 Cartridges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Everone:
My "new old stock" Stevens 44 Center Fire Breech block, my order of "44" pins and screws from Muzzleloader Builders Supply, arrived and I am happy to  report some of the items fit as received, others are slightly larger than the holes they should go through but are within 'reaming' range to fit tightly for little lost motion in the action.
- The Breech Block Pivot Pin and Pivot Screw fit the receiver holes tightly but are about .002 big for the Breech Block hole.
- The Lever Pivot, same as BB Pivot, is slightly large for both the Receiver holes and the Lever I have.
- The Hammer Pivot Screw fits the Receiver hole tightly, but I do not have a hammer yet to try.
- The Trigger Pivot Screw does not fit the Receiver holes.
- The firing pin retainer is very tight in the Breech Block and also the threads for it, so fitting may be needed later.
- The Breech Block seems to fit my receiver well, side to side, and front to rear but the up and down will need to wait until I can work the Pivot Pin through both the Breech Block and receiver holes simultaneously.

As to my two 1894 Actions, more delay as my Gunsmith's wife went into the Hospital Thursday. I do not know the cause nor the results.
I believe other things are set aside in times of personal worry, and I agree with that.

My 1915 action is on hold for the moment, waiting upon Pacific Tool and Gauge to complete my .250ALRM Roughing Chamber Reamer, to go with the Finish Chamber Reamer they did last year.  I am not using the Finish Reamer until I can rough the chamber first, I do not want to dull or chip the Finish Reamer in a raw bore.

I received the order of Swiss Black Powder from Buffalo Arms with one 'little' problem, they 'substituted' 1fg for the 2fg I ordered.
I have already talked with Buffalo Arms and we came to a understanding on what will happen, so I am satisfied.
This means I now have Swiss in 1fg, 3fg, 4fg, and Null-B to experiment with along with my previous stock of GOEX 3fg and Pyrodex "CTG".
I also have several types of modern Smokeless Powders I have used or planned to experiment with so I am now well positioned to do the necessary powder loadings for my .25 calibers and my .32 Calibers.

I have a supply of .312" to .315" 90 grain heeled bullets in two designs, and a supply of .255" 51 grain Lead bullets along with some .25" Jacketed bullets.  The experimental loadings will be made up when the weather here drys out and gets warmer as it is done on my back patio which faces to the North, not the Warmest nor calmest at the moment.

I did buy a second 1915 Receiver, but it appears to have been 'Bubba' Repaired in the past, further inspections will wait until after the 18th when I can pick it up from my FFL dealer due to California Regulations.  This one does NOT have a visible serial number nor other markings, has partially cleaned up weld at the body to lower tang joint cleaned up Braze at the body to upper tang joint, and a heavy boss at the end of the lower tang with a screw fitted between the two tangs, which are close to the same length as I remember it from when I saw it during filling out the transfer paperwork.
For $45 plus $5 shipping and $89+ for the transfer, it was 'inexpensive'; but may be unusable as is for a firing arm.  Wall hanger maybe?

Now Back to the 'mundane', getting ready for Tax Preparation, replacing shredded shelter canvas, Getting my dogs to Vet for annual checkup then getting their licenses renewed for the year. keeping ahead of the mushrooms popping up in my back lawn, etc., etc.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Pacific tool and gauge finally charged my Credit Card for the Roughing Chamber Reamer, so it should be arriving shortly via the mail.  Yea!
Best Regards,
Chev. William
PS: My "Wisner's" order arrived today.  Four Extractors and one ejector for 1915/1894 series Actions.  Now I have some modern replacements. for the eroded originals plus some spares to fit for other than 22LR calibers.  Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I made a Auction purchase for my Third Stevens partially stripped receiver, a Model 44 missing the Breech block and pivot pins, but with the Lever, Link, hammer, and trigger and their two pivot screws.  It should arrive at my gunsmiths shop sometime next week so we can start the Transfer paperwork at that time.  I am hoping the hammer and trigger are usable and good enough to be measured as "models' for the drawings 'uscra112' and I are working on.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

The Model 44 action arrived at my gunsmiths shop Saturday and I went into look at it and to start the Transfer paperwork.
It turns out the Breech block Pivot and Lever pivot pins were with the receiver.  All screw slots have been 'Bubba'd" and the two pins and their retainer screws are rusted.  There is a hammer and Trigger still in the receiver but no springs, and the two pivot screws are 'frozen' in the receiver.  The Lever and Link assembly have dark brown 'rust' with some pitting but the Link pivots smoothly with no 'play'.  I was allowed to bring home the Lever, Link, and teh two pivot pins with the retaining screws so I could start the cleanup.  I note the Lever is cut for a 'narrow' bottom extractor, about 150" wide, rather than the 'wide' type of about .200" wide.
There was a piece of the extractor, broken and bent, still in the slot of the Lever.  There is no hole for a spring or plunger in the Lever.
I also saw that the receiver had the two spring retainer screws in it, there is no barrel retainer screw, and the Receiver 'bridge' has a 'sighting groove' cut in its top surface, there were no markings visible on the top oor sides of the receiver but a serial number (35xxx) was barely visible stamped in the lower tang and the numbers "44" and "0" stamped in the front face.
It seems this receiver may be usable IF we can get the hammer and trigger screws out and F I can get new ones to install.  I would also need to get new BB and Lever pivot pins and retainer screws even if I can 'de-rust' the originals as pitting is visible on the pins.
The Bushing in the side of the Lever is somewhat loose in the bore so it will need tightening.
For now I have oiled the Link pivot and will leave it assembled as a sample for later assemblies.

I am also looking for a 'Safety Hammer" sample to use in making measurements and drawings to make a replacement locally, if any one has a 'spare' even a broken one I would be interested.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I made a 'Lucky" order with Numerich for some '44' parts and they came this last Saturday.
A hammer, a Trigger, a Link, a Barrel (retainer) Screw, a Lever (pivot) Screw, and a Firing Pin Screw.
Later, I looked on the Numerich site and the items are now listed as 'Sold Out'.
The Lever Screw has external Threads so is for a very early '44' (and uscra112 has already asked me for it).
The Hammer, Trigger, and Link are similar to the de Haas drawings so seem to be correct parts and will make usable 'models' for me to measure and complete the AutoCAD drawings uscra112 and I are working on.
Interestingly, the Lever Screw is slightly smaller than the Pivot Pins that go properly into my Receiver and does got tightly into the NOS Breech block Pivot hole.  this allows me to 'mock up' the action with the parts I have on hand now.
This Breech Block is a 'tight' fit between the pivot screw and the 'shoulders' in the back of the Receiver Breech opening.
The hammer just 'covers' the firing pin hole in the Breech block so it looks like I will have a potentially well fitted actin when al is said and done.
It seems the Good Lord is Smiling upon this endeavor for the present.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[dusty texian]

The 31-090A has proven to be very accurate in the little 1892 Marlin .32 LC. Thank's w44wcf for the sample bullet's . Think it is time this little combo goes Spring Turkey hunting,,,,,,,,Dusty

[dusty texian]

A handy little 1892 Marlin.32 LC.These little rifles are a pleasure to shoot and carry. ,,,,Dusty

[Chev. William]

Definitely a Pretty Rifle there, and your 25 Yard Target 3 shot group Looks Good too.
Do you know how fast that 2.5 grains of TiteGroup is sending the nominal 90 grain 31-090A Bullet out the Muzzle?
Enjoy a Turkey this Spring.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[dusty texian]

Thank's Chev. William. I did not crono this load. w44wcf mentioned that this load  2.5 gr of Trail Boss ,ran at about 760 fps. with the 31-090A, in his 92 .32 . same barrel lenth as mine 24". I have found that the #2400 powder gives great accuracy in the .32 and the load's run along about 1,075 fps,with 90 gr. bullet's. ,,,,,,Dusty

[Chev. William]

Today was spent selecting and fitting pivot screws and pins to a couple of my Receivers.

A "Bubba'd" 1894 Favorite got four pivot screws fitted temporarily to it.
The Breech Block Pivot Screw is threaded to far onto the shank as the threads would be fully in one "ear' of the Breech Block, reducing the support for it.
The Lever Pivot Screw has the correct thread amount (about one thread) showing inside the Receiver so the Lever would receive maximum support of thread free screw body, or Grip.
The Hammer Pivot Screw both threaded to far and too long for the receiver width, showing about four threads inside and one thread outside.
The Trigger Pivot Screw is similar to the Hammer one in length and threads showing  inside and outside.
Now I need to go through my internal parts to see if anything would fit this receiver.
I will eventually need to get some new screws with longer Grip and shorter threaded section to properly support he various internal parts.

The other one is a Model 44 receiver that Was in dire need to new pivot pins and Screws also.
The Breech Block is a NOS one I bought of Ebay and I used an adjustable reamer to ease its pivot hole out to very closely fit a new pivot pin I got from "Muzzleloader Builders Supply" along with several other pivot parts.
The Lever Pivot pin did not go in the Receiver holes until they were also reamed out. but just went into the Lever pivot hole.
The Hammer Pivot Screw head would not go into the Receiver counter bore so I 'dressed' it down until it would properly fit.
The Trigger Pivot Screw actually fit as received  except for being half a thread too long.
My Breech Block is actually too long to close in this Receiver, so I will need to 'dress' its rear face down to make it an exact fit in the BB Slot against the rear shoulders.
I will need to make or find a firing pin to fit but I have a used Firing Pin Retainer Screw that does fit the BB.
Hammer and Trigger are still in limbo, do I use the ones I bought form "Numerich" as is or first use them as patterns to get more made?  Or do I hold out for "Safety Hammer" to copy?

All in all it was an interesting day.
Best Regards,
Chev. William