.32 Long Colt ,Need Help

[dusty texian]

Wow ndnchf,that little rolling block is sure shootin. Glad to see the TB shooting good in the 32 LC. And dont it burn clean. Seeing this post makes me want to get my little 32 out and do a little shootin myself. Thank's for the nudge. Great Job Amigo,,,,,Dusty

[Chev. William]

My new Accurate Mold 5 Cavity .32 heeled inside lube bullet mold came in the USPS mail yesterday.  It is marked with the numbers "311090A" which is probably the code assigned to the dimensions of my requested bullets, which are slightly smaller than the catalog 31-090A diameters to better match my Stevens Barrel bore and groove diameters.
The barrel slugs at .299" bore and .305" groove while I requested the mold to be made with heel diameter of .303" and Driving band diameter of .311"  I also asked Tom to add back the 'lost' weight in a cylindrical section of .300" diameter added between the ogive and the front of the driving band so that the final bullet will still end up at 90 grains weight.
Confirmed by Tom at Accurate Molds via Email yesterday evening, the "311090A" is the actual bullet diameter plus the basic design number.

Now I need to ship the mold to "Matt's Bullets" to get them cast and lubed.  I will let you know when I receive the first lot of the new bullets.  

I also received my latest Stevens Barrel purchase, a 1894 one in .32 Long RF with the Knurled and Threaded ring intended to adjust head space.
It is in reasonably good condition with no 'blue' finish remaining as it is an almost uniform brown patina with some dings from rough handling over its lifetime.  The bore as received was dirty so numerous passed with a brass bore brush cleaned out the 'crud' and revealed a bore with few 'pits' and showing thin but complete rifling for its full bore length.  The chamber appears to be smooth and without 'rings' or 'pits'.  Both a front and a rear fixed sight were still on the barrel so it may already be 'sighted in' as received.  The breech end does appear to have been mushroomed slightly to gain some diameter as it measured .665" near the breech and .657" about a 1/4" forward of the Breech face.  Since the Tenon supposedly be about .660" diameter to fit the receiver socket, this seems reasonable as afield expedient to get it a tighter fit.  The muzzle is flat but rough with 'dings', again from apparent rough handling.  I may re-cut the crown it after first trying it for accuracy.  The retention socket for the take down screw tip is slightly stepped and lengthened so may have been cut deeper and forward after the 'mushrooming' of the breech face.  I will need to refinish the barrel eventually if it turns out to be an accurate one.
Further measurements of the chamber found it to be 1.158" deep and .346" in diameter, much too large a diameter for .32 Long RF or .32 Long Colt BUT it is .013" larger than the base diameter of a new unfired Starline .32 S&W Long case (.333" diameter).  It seems I now have an 1894 Barrel that has already been opened out to take a .32 S&W case, no wonder the chamber looks so smooth and free of 'pits' or 'rings.

Now comes the Quandary: do I leave it as a ".32 S&W Long" barrel or do I fit a Chamber bushing to reduce it back to ".32 Long Colt" or do I go the expensive route and put a full liner in it with .300" Bore/.308" groove and buy a .32 Long Colt chamber reamer set to cut the new chamber?
I believe the Bushing route is the cheapest revision, but I would still need to have the chamber reamer to complete it, and the liner/chamber reamers route would be the most expensive.
Of course leaving it as a ".32 S&W Long" chambered barrel is the least costs mode, although that is a lower "Figure of Safety" condition for possible future owners of the Barrel/firearm.

I now have a used Butt stock temporarily fitted to my 1915 action adn I have tried the new barrel in the action also, finding that the re is a noticeable gap between barrel face and Breech Block face, which may indicate that I will need to get the barrel reworked to get proper head space back.

I slipped on a wet kitchen floor just after Thanksgiving and tore the front Thigh muscle in catching myself. Now my foot, ankle , and back of the Calf are showing 'blue bruise' coloration from leaking blood cells (I have been on 'Warfarin Sodium' for blood clots for several years) also my lower leg, ankle, and foot are showing 'bloating' so I know I am still 'leaking blood plasma' from the torn muscle, which formed a bump on the front of the leg about 9 inches above my knee.  I have been trying ot keep the leg elevated to help the drainage but it is not easy as I am single so I have to move about for normal daily routine.  I also had two days of work this week so my Christmas will be looking better when the paychecks arrive in the mails.

I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving and will have an enjoyable Christmas and New Years Holiday Season.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[dusty texian]

Howdy Chev William, sorry to hear about your slip and injury. Hope you get well soon . Happy Holiday's to you also Chev,And may the New Yr. bring health and good fortune to you,,,,,,,Dusty

[Chev. William]

Everyone,
Please reread my post number 361 as I have edited it and added new measurements and information to it.
The 'new' 1894 barrel has raised some new questions.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Sorry to hear of your injury Chev.  Take it easy of a little while and let it heal.  I think we should start calling you the the Stevens Barrel King!

[Chev. William]

Sorry to hear of your injury Chev.  Take it easy of a little while and let it heal.  I think we should start calling you the the Stevens Barrel King!

Please, I am not A 'Royal'; but I am a Chevalier, and received the alocade of Knighthood in several Orders, and an Esquire (land Owner) hence my 'moniker' "Chev. William".  I am also appointed "Man at Arms" to a Scottish Baron.

I believe I am a "collector" at the moment, but that may change after I find the "Keeper" barrel in .32 Long and then I would possibly sell of the collection to regain my finances, keeping only the ones I wish to shoot, in .22, .25, and .32 calibers.

The "keeper barrels would be still in original Blue, with very clean bores, and accurate shooters.
As previously posted I have found ONE 'Keeper' so far, it is in .25 Stevens Long RF.
I do have more than one .25 Stevens barrel and I intend to get at least one rebuilt to take .250ALRM just to experiment.

I do have more than one .32 Long barrel although none are "keeper" as received, If I do not find that 'keeper' one, I will refurbish one or more of the ones I have into good looking Shooters.
My 'collection' now has .32 Long marked barrels ranging from 'ratty' to good but none in original blue finish.
There is one chambered oversize (.346" Chamber diameter) and several with chambers suitable for .32 Long Colt or .32 Long RF use.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Now that I'm at the point where I have good brass and a couple loads that shoot very well at 50 yards, I decided to try a couple things.  First off, the Lyman 299153 bullets mic around .315"-.3155" on the driving bands and that's what Lyman says they should be.  But my rilfe's groove size is ..3085".  So these bullets are around .007" over groove size.  They shoot very good, so I can't argue with success.  Not being one to leave well enough alone, I decided to play around anyway 

I picked up Lee .314" and .309" push through sizers, so I sized some bullets down to .309 in two steps, then loaded them behind 1.9gr of Trail Boss.  The other thing I tried was lube cookies.  Noting that the lube grooves are pretty small on these bullets, I loaded 7.3gr of Goex 3F, compressed it a little, a wax paper wad, a lube cookie and then seated the bullet. 

Next time I go to the range, I'll try them out.  I'm about out of bullets and am waiting on another batch to come from Jack.

[dusty texian]

Howdy ndnchf, look forward to seeing the result's of the new load you speak of . I have tried Swiss and Goex in the .32 LC. and had very good result's. Hope that load work's for you. It seem's that the .32LC is not a picky cartridge to load for.The little .32 shoot's sweet with just about any load I have tried in it. Leaving for the Lucky 11 in the morn. the wife and I . Will return just before Christmas .May be my last post until then, so Merry Christmas to you and your's and all my Friend's here ,,,,,Dusty

[Chev. William]

Now that I'm at the point where I have good brass and a couple loads that shoot very well at 50 yards, I decided to try a couple things.  First off, the Lyman 299153 bullets mic around .315"-.3155" on the driving bands and that's what Lyman says they should be.  But my rilfe's groove size is ..3085".  So these bullets are around .007" over groove size.  They shoot very good, so I can't argue with success.  Not being one to leave well enough alone, I decided to play around anyway 

I picked up Lee .314" and .309" push through sizers, so I sized some bullets down to .309 in two steps, then loaded them behind 1.9gr of Trail Boss.  The other thing I tried was lube cookies.  Noting that the lube grooves are pretty small on these bullets, I loaded 7.3gr of Goex 3F, compressed it a little, a wax paper wad, a lube cookie and then seated the bullet. 

Next time I go to the range, I'll try them out.  I'm about out of bullets and am waiting on another batch to come from Jack.

Ndnchf,
I finally broke down and bought a Bullet mold (Accurate Mold "311090A" 5 cavity) and will be sending it to "Matt's Bullets" of Highland ,AR to get some bullets cast.  I intend to let Matt use the mold to cast commercially so he should eventually have bullets to sell to others.  This mold is set up to cast a .311 diameter driving band and .303" diameter heel Round/flat nose bullet with Inside Lube Groove at 90 grains.
Perhaps you will be able to try this design in the future.
Best Regards, and have a "Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year" to boot,
Chev. William

[w44wcf]

Chev. William,
Glad to hear that your accurate mold has become a reality but very sorry to learn of your injury. I hope that you heal quickly.
I would suggest sleeving that .32 S&W barrel to .32 Colt especially since the chamber seems a bit large for the .32 S&W and blow by would likely result.  

ndnchf,
Nice shooting.  For reference, I did chronograph 2.5 / Trailboss and it produced a bit over 800 f.p.s. while 5/2400 gave around 1,000 f.p.s. with 90 gr. bullets in the .78" case.

The larger .315" bullet may be of some benefit since it will center the cartridge up a bit more in the chamber prior to bullet launch....but then again, testing of the .309" bullets may prove otherwise. Hope your testing goes well. I look forward to seeing yur results.

The b.p. rounds I have fired (311245 modified.... taoered heel .... bullet had shot very well with 10 - 12 grs Swiss FFFG.  I am anxious to give it a try with the Accurate 31-090S bullet, once I cast some more.... hopefully in the next week or so.  It does hold a bit more lube than the 299153 but not as much as the 311245.

Dusty,
Have a safe trip. Thank you for the Merry Christmas wish.

Best wishes to all for a Merry Christmas and a healthy, happy and prosperous 2014.

w44wcf    

[ndnchf]

Thanks for your input fellas.  The chamber of my rifle is pretty tight.  I sized the converted brass with the .316" die Dusty made me, and then reamed the case mouths with a custom ground .299" reamer.  This works fine with the .299" heeled Lyman 299153 bullets.  But a larger heel than that will prevent the case from chambering.  I found that the collet made crimp does not get completely removed upon firing, so using a carbide bit I turned down a .32 S&W expander plug to .299".  Now I can smooth out the case mouths easily. After loading the bullets, I usually run the cartridges back into the .316"die partially, as they tend to grow a little.  The next thing I need to make is a compression plug to use with the BP loads.  I'm just doing it by hand with a dowel right now.  Not very consistent.

[ndnchf]

Sitting at work this afternoon I kept thinking about making a compression plug.  So when I got home I rummaged around for a bolt I could turn down to make a plug, but didn't find one.  Then I spotted a box of .40 S&W dies I never use (I don't even recall how I ended up with dies for such a newfanged cartridge).  The .40 expander die had an expander plug that would make a good compression plug after being turned down.  The expander plug was super hard at the tip, so I had to take it to a grinder first to break through the hard skin.  After that I was able to turn it down to .290" with a carbide bit.



I now have a .322" die for swaging down .32 S&W brass, a .316" die for sizing, a .299" expander die/plug, a .290" compression plug/die and a .32 S&W Long seating die that works fine for the .32 Long Colt.  I need a bigger storage box for my dies 

[Chev. William]

Lee makes a four die box and RCBS makes a three die box.
You might try one of them for a spare box.
I do not know about the other die makers.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

More 'tinkering' with the Stevens 1915 Favorite action I bought.  I now know that the two main screws, the BB Pivot and the Lever Pivot are special built and larger than the originals.  The BB Pivot screw Takes a .250" diameter set of holes to fit (screw diameter measures .249+") and the Lever Pivot Screw takes .228" (number 1 drill) holes (screw diameter measures .227").  I have not disassembled the Hammer nor trigger so I do not yet know their screw and hole diameters.

The Breech Block is definitely a custom manufactured item as it is set up with a 'bushing' in the Breech face with the firing pin hole in the middle.  The hole is .093" or slightly larger as a 3/32" drill bit will enter it smoothly.  A 1/16" pilot hole has been drilled through the margin of the Bushing, which is how I discovered it was a bushing, it was invisible before the pilot hole was drilled.
The Breech Block measures .595" in width, compared to the spare that measures .542" width.

I now have three extra Breech blocks that I have opened the pivot hole out to fit the custom screw, along with a lever opened out to fit it's pivot screw, and a link in a set that now also fits my action.
"Wisner's" web site states the 1915 Breech Block was .550" wide and used a .216" pivot screw, the original Lever screw is stated as being .187" diameter.

I now need to find some of the spring loaded 1915 Extractor/ejector parts to rework in to one to fit with the 'spare' Breech blocks, "Wisner's" lists them as part 6-9BC with a Price and availability of "CALL", please wish me luck.

I am thinking I will use a custom firing pin with a .080" diameter tip and use a Number 46 (.081" diameter) drill to make the pin hole in the breech face.  if this hole is too close, then I could ream it to number 45 (.082").  I like the design of  the custom firing pin that came with the action, it is fitted with a retraction spring to keep the tip retracted until the pin is hit by the hammer.  Original Stevens design did not use a spring, just a 'free floating' firing pin, and the ones I have observed all seem to get a 'peened' over, or 'mushroomed', hammer end that sticks in the bore of the Breech Block, in the tip extended position.  Not the most reassuring from a Safety standpoint.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Edited 2013DEC22 Chev. William

[ndnchf]

Chev - sounds like you are making progress.  How about posting some pics for us to see what you are working on?

[ndnchf]

In the past I've seen reference to the .32 long colt original black powder charge being 12-13 gr of 3F.  But that seemed a bit much for my cases.  Then it dawned on me that 12-13gr was likely for the newer, longer case rounds using a hollow base bullet.  So I dug back into some old Ideal/Lyman catalogs.  It took a while, but I finally found what I was looking for.  In the 1929 Lyman catalog, it says that the 299153 bullet was loaded in the .78" long case with 11gr of 3F black powder.

So with that knowledge, I wanted to see how close I could get with my new made cases.  First I looked at my Lee scoops and the chart says that a .7cc scoop holds 11.1gr of 3F.  OK, so take several sample scoops (with a few granules removed to make 11gr even) and weight them.  They came out at 9.8gr by weight.  I figure the catalog was referring to volume, since that's how most folks loaded back then.  So I carefully pour the 11gr charge into a case.  With a little gentle tapping it fills it right to the case mouth.  So a full case equals 11gr volume.  I then got out the new compression plug/die I made the other day and adjust it to compress about .140" - .150" into the case.  That leaves just enough room to seat the 299153 heel.  I made up 10 rounds with 11gr, compressed them and then seated and crimped the bullet.  Wa-la – original style ammo! 

The compression plug/die worked great.  It easily compressed the charge.  So now I have rounds loaded with the same bullet and powder charge that was loaded over 100 years ago.  I can't wait to get to the range and try them out.       

[w44wcf]

ndnchf,
Nice work.    If you look at the Marlin Catalog illustrations on page 1 of this thread, there is information on the powder charges used in the factory cartridges.  The long .91 case with the hollow based bullet - 13 grs. /  .78" case 90 gr flat base bullet - 12 grs.

You have a good point regarding by volume weight. Also the early cartridges were balloon head which would hold a bit more powder than modern brass. Also b.p. back then was a bit more dense than modern Goex.

In the past I was able to obtain some vintage .32 Long Colt rounds and dissected some of them to do some forensics.  I did find some .78" case rounds that did hold 12 grs. by weight of b.p.  Some others had closer to 11 grs.  by weight.  I did not think to check the volume of the powder.
 
I will say that in the spirit of "stepping back in time"  I have loaded 12 grs. of Swiss 3F by weight  (12 gr volume Lyman measure) in original U.M.C. balloon head .78" cases.  Compression on a settled charge was .10"  Velocity was in the 1,100 f.p.s. range.

w30wcf

[ndnchf]

I should have re-read the whole thread, but its gotten so long that I didn't.  I imagine the loading varied between 11 and 12gr depending on manufacturer. I found 11gr in the 1929 lyman catalog.  By that time I would expect only solid head cases were being made - maybe not? I wish I had some clean burning Swiss 3F on hand, but I don't. There isn't much lube capacity on these bullets so I expect to wipe every couple shots.

[Chev. William]

Chev - sounds like you are making progress.  How about posting some pics for us to see what you are working on?

I just recently obtained a cable to allow downloading Photos from my digital camera to my computer, now I need to figure out how the reduce the data file size from roughly 1,500KB to something suitable to post on this web site.  And How to post Photos here.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I should have re-read the whole thread, but its gotten so long that I didn't.  I imagine the loading varied between 11 and 12gr depending on manufacturer. I found 11gr in the 1929 lyman catalog.  By that time I would expect only solid head cases were being made - maybe not? I wish I had some clean burning Swiss 3F on hand, but I don't. There isn't much lube capacity on these bullets so I expect to wipe every couple shots.

Have you considered 'dipping' the loaded bullet in Lee Liquid ALOX 'tumble lube' to add additional lubrication on these loaded cartridges?  A post Crimp bullet only 'dip' might add enough lube so you can shoot longer between bore cleaning wipes.

Best Regards,
Chev. William