.32 Long Colt ,Need Help

[Adirondacker]

It would be sweet if he can make a .32 collet crimper.  Chev - Let us know what you find out.

Has it been mentioned that Lee makes one for .32S&W?  Just noticed this on Midway, & intended to order one, but--as usual--"out of stock."

[ndnchf]

Adirondacker - I was not aware of that. I just measured a factory .32 S&W at the mouth area.  It measures .3345"-.335".  I don't know how tight the collet die can get.  The .32 Colt is about .315", .020" smaller than the .32 S&W.  An interesting idea.

[w44wcf]

Most of the Lee pistol Factory Crimp dies do not use a collet to crimp.

The rifle dies do.

I have used my .30-30 Lee FCD to crimp .32 Colt cartridges. By using a 1.12" long pin (2.030 - .910 / .30-30 case length - .32 Colt case length) that places the .32 Colt case mouth at the same level as the .30-30 and the crimp can be applied in the same way.  

The .32-20 Lee FCD uses a collet type die and a shorter pin could be used with that.

That's pretty much what Bernie does at Old West Molds.  

I did not notice any benefit accuracy wise by doing so as long as the bullet fit snuggly into the case....... at least with the few loads I tried with solid heel bullets.  I did not try it with the slower powders (2400 / 4227) but the increased bullet pull may be of some benefit.  Also with hollow base bullets the crimp could possibly provide the best results.  
  
w44wcf      

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[Adirondacker]

Most of the Lee pistol Factory Crimp dies do not use a collet to crimp.
w44wcf      

Went back to Midway to see if I'd misread, but .32 S&W is available (though presently "out of stock") as a "factory crimp."  This is strange, because in the list of available factory crimp dies at Lee's site, the .32 S&W is NOT included; don't know what to make of that.

Lee's description of the advantage of this die states that it does what handloaders do when they seat the bullet far enough out to touch the rifling--which is what I ALWAYS do, unless the case is too short to hold the bullet at that seating position.

[w44wcf]

Adirondacker,

Here's the rifle Lee FCD. Note the collet coming in from the side to form the crimp (I think you bought one of these in 44-40.).



By comparison, here's the pistol Lee FCD. It has a carbide ring at the bottom and the crimp is similar to a standard crimp die.



They do show the 32 S&W Long crimp die
http://leeprecision.com/carbide-factory-crimp-die-32-s-w-lg.html

w44wcf

[Adirondacker]

 the crimp is similar to a standard crimp die.

w44wcf

Thanks for the clarification. In other words, it's a ROLL crimp, & provides no advantage over my Hornady carbide die.  Well, at least I'm spared the cost of another die...and anyway, I seat bullets in my .32 S&W hard into the lands.

[Adirondacker]

I have used my .30-30 Lee FCD to crimp .32 Colt cartridges. By using a 1.12" long pin (2.030 - .910 / .30-30 case length - .32 Colt case length) that places the .32 Colt case mouth at the same level as the .30-30 and the crimp can be applied in the same way.  
w44wcf      

I think I understand how you're doing this, but a photo of the pin would help my un-mechanical mind to get it straight.

Maybe you should tell Lee about this...so they can add this pin to their inventory of a million gadgets.

[ndnchf]

This is interesting, but you lost me on the "pin".  I don't have either of these type of dies, so I don't understand how they work.  Those are great images, but I don't see the pin in question.  If its as simple as using a .30-30 or .32-20 crimp die with a different pin, and the pin is easy to make, that could be a simple solution. 

[pony express]

Here's the one I have for .38 Long and Short Colt. This one is adjustable for cartridge length. When you use it, the entire case, and pin, are actually inside the crimp die.






One potential problem I can see, the .38 cal uses the standard diameter .38 case, but with a .375 bullet, so the collet is for the standard .38 spl dimension. But the .32 uses a smaller case diameter than the other .32s, so a 32-20 collet may not close up small enough to crimp the smaller diameter case.

[pony express]

Hey, where'd my pictures go? I'll try again.

Well, seems to be a problem posting pictures. I'll have to ask for some "tech support" and be back later.

[w44wcf]

pony express, thank you for the information.

Here's a pic of the pin to make the oal  pin+.32 L Colt = .30-30 case length.
 


w44wcf

[Chev. William]

W44WCF,
Thank you Very Much for the drawings of the two types of "Factory Crimp Die" from Lee.
Thank you also for posting the photo of the"pin" used to adapt the 30-30 Collette type to crimp the .32 Long colt.

That looks like it is doable for our needs, just requires one pin for each crimp length of the cartridge.
Alternate thought:  make the pin length adjustable too.
Admittedly that would make the pin harder to manufacture and would need careful design to assure sufficient strength of the adjustment for variations in case wall strengths.  And the adjustment would need to be marked somehow to allow resetting for different cases and bullets.
As the main force of the crimp is applied at the bottom of the Collette, this 'strength' may be reasonable for successful design and production.
Adjustment thread is another consideration.  
40 Threads per inch is used in Micrometers as it gives an easy division for .001" measurements (25 division around the circumference).  I wonder if it would be strong enough in this application?
20 Threads per inch would require 50 divisions for the same .001" accuracy, might be a little hard to read, but would give additional strength.
I have not looked into what other Screw thread pitch series could be used and give easy division for .001" resettable measurements. Nor have I looked up the actual strengths of the two threads I mentioned.  It has been a long day, up at 0300 to get to worksite before 0630 then on 'duty' until 12.7 hours later, with a half hour for lunch, then a heavy traffic drive home lasting from before sunset until after full dark.  Then of course greeting my two dogs that had been outside all day and doing the reading and typing to put my ideas before you.  It's now 2215 and I am signing off to go to bed, It least I can sleep in tomorrow morning no work call for the weekend but a promise of one possibly Wednesday.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Adirondacker]

A Marbles auxiliary cartridge adapter should also work for this purpose--if you can find one.

[pony express]

I still can't attach photos, I get a server error message when I try. Found one pic in this thread:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,41633.0.html

That one appears to be a non adjustable one. The one I have from Old West Molds has a brass part made to replace the shellholder in the press., with the center hole threaded to match the extension pin, looks like about a 1/4" regular coarse thread. Brass part is also drilled for a set screw to lock the pin in place. as you can see in the picture, the pin has a small "shell holder" turned into it. Since I don't have a lathe, I'd rather pay Bernie to make it, I think it was about $25 or $30. The cheaper, non adjustable  version would be to use the pin from a Lee bullet sizing die and shorten it to the needed length.

[Chev. William]

W44WCF,
Thank you Very Much for the drawings of the two types of "Factory Crimp Die" from Lee.
Thank you also for posting the photo of the "pin" used to adapt the 30-30 Collette type to crimp the .32 Long colt.

That looks like it is doable for our needs, just requires one pin fo reach crimp length of the cartridge.
Alternate thought:  make the pin length adjustable too.
Admittedly that would make the pin harder to manufacture and would need careful design to assure sufficient strength of the adjustment for variations in case wall strengths.  And the adjustment would need to be marked somehow to allow resetting for different cases and bullets.
As the main force of the crimp is applied at the bottom of the Collette, this 'strength' may be reasonable for successful design and production.
Adjustment thread is another consideration.  
40 Threads per inch is used in Micrometers as it gives an easy division for .001" measurements (25 division around the circumference).  I wonder if it would be strong enough in this application?
20 Threads per inch would require 50 divisions fo rth esaem .001" accuracy, might be a little hard to read, but would give additional strength.
I have not looked into what other Screw thread pitch series could be used and give easy division for .001" resettable measurements. Nor have I looked up the actual strengths of the two threads I mentioned.  It has been a long day, up at 0300 to get to worksite before 0630 then on 'duty' until 12.7 hours later, with a half hour for lunch, then a heavy traffic drive home lasting from before sunset until after full dark.  Then of course greeting my two dogs that had been outside all day and doing the reading and typing to put my ideas before you.  It's now 2215 and i am signing off to go to bed, It least I can sleep in tomorrow morning no work call for the weekend but a promise of one possibly Wednesday.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Saturday Evening, September 27th:
On a 'Whim' I bid and won an auction for a "Stevens Favorite Barrel in 25-20".  It came in today's USPS mails and now I am in Quandry.
I just this evening received a used Barrel in the USPS Mail that has a chamber that does not match what is marked on the barrel.

First the barrel description:
It is a half round-half octagon design about 26 inches long with an 8 inch full octagon section.  The Muzzle end measures .807 inch diameter with a square flat end.
The round section measures about .942 inch diameter just in front of the Octagon section.
The Octagon section measures about .972 inch across the flats.
The Breech end has two diameters with threads on the middle third.
The section near the octagon measures .800 inch diameter, the threaded area seems to be .790 inch outer diameter, and the breech end measures .740 inch diameter. The 'spigot overall length measures 1.553 inches, with the .740 inch section about .695 inch long.
Markings on the barrel are:
"J. Stevens A. & T. Co.", "Chicopee Falls, Mass.U.S.A. PAT. APR. 17 94" on the top flat.
"25-20" in 'roll stamp script' on the next flat.
and "61 674" just forward of the bottom flat.
No other markings were found.

Second the Chamber description:
The chamber measurements do not match what Ammoguide has for either "25-20' cartridge, nor does the Cartridge Identifier tool come up with a match.
Dimensions measured so far:
Chamber depth = 1.175 inch.
Chamber shoulder diameter = .279 inch.
Chamber base diameter = .279 inch.
Chamber rim cut diameter = .348 inch.
Chamber Rim cut depth = .053 inch.
Barrel slugs .250 Bore and .257 Groove diameters.

Note that one of my ".250ALS" loaded cartridges will go into the chamber as found.  But the barrel is 'oversize for the bullet, a .250 Diameter 50 Grain FMJ RN design.

I am hoping someone with more experience with the older cartridges will be able to help me identify what this barrel is designed to fit (action) and fire (cartridge).

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

RE: The identification of my 'new' barrel.
I have received several suggestions of what action it is for and what cartridge it is chambered in.
The general consensus to date is that it may be a set back and chamber cut Stevens Model 44 Barrel.
The Chamber dimensions, it is believed match those of the .25 Stevens Long RF cartridge however the Bore and Groove diameters are larger than is used for that round.
The .25 Stevens Long RF uses a bullet of .250 to .251 nominal diameter, inside lubed.
The Bore dimensions seem to be correct for the 25-20 Stevens, or as others called it , the 25-20 Single Shot, which did use a .257 nominal diameter bullet.

Perhaps someone else had the thought to use it as a Center fire conversion to a 'mildcat' of the .25 Stevens and then found to late that the bore dimensions were not right for their project?

Now there is what should be done with it?
Should it be the beginning of a project to develop a 'Heel base' bullet of .257 or so diameter to fit in a 1.124" or so case length and chamber in a 1.175' long chamber?
Should it be again cut to a new chamber for some other .257 diameter bullet using cartridge?
Should I 'unload it' to someone else?

It has a Very Good Condition bore after cleaning it, with smooth and shiny insides and sharp rifling the full length from Chamber to muzzle. 
When I slugged it with a "Ranch Dog" design .25ACP bullet, from chamber to muzzle, driving it through with a 3/16 Hard Brass rod and mild hammer blows I found it even in tightness until about an inch from the muzzle end, where it felt slightly looser than the rest.

Inspecting the slug with a 20 power magnifier, the rifling cut sharp edged grooves in the driving bands almost to the bullet nose diameter and the drive bands, including the 'swell' of the nose before the first driving band, showed contact with the full diameter of the barrel grooves.  It seems it would seal, and possibly shoot well even with this bullet size, if it is not reduced in diameter in the loading process.  An obvious problem with a cartridge that requires some tension on the bullet to retain it in the cartridge.

Pondering on this,  I surmise that a heel based and heel lubed bullet design similar to the Accurate Molds 31-090A, but of around .258" maximum diameter and with a .250" diameter heel would work.  The heel length should be about the same as the seated depth of a .25ACP bullet and the driving band should be about .050" long to fit the bullet in a 1.125" long ".25 Stevens CF" case and still chamber in the 1.175" cut chamber as found.
Accurate molds does not make molds below .300 bullet diameter at this time according to their web site.
The nose could be a 'bore rider design and extend into the rifling as it slugged at .250".
A bullet weight of about 67 to 75 grains would be interesting for this barrel, especially since it seems it is for the stronger Model 44 action rather than the 'Favorite' action.  The stronger action would allow loading to higher chamber pressures and resulting muzzle velocity than would be useable in the 'favorite' action even with improved strength pins and screws.

The resulting cartridge would retain the powder chamber volume to hold between 9 and 10 grains of Black Powder so could still be named perhaps ".25-10 Stevens Center Fire" and, if loaded with a nominal .251" diameter bullet, still used in the 'Favorite' action and barrel/chamber combination.

What do the other members of the Forum think of these ideas?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Adirondacker]

Maybe I've missed something in your description of the above brl. but if it's THREADED, how can it be a Favorite brl.?

Didn't you say earlier that you already had another threaded brl?  I mentioned that any threaded Stevens brl must be for the 44 or 44-1/2.

[Chev. William]

The original Auction described it as a 'Stevens Favorite barrel in 25-20' "no returns" auction.
I received it and immeadiatly decided it would not fit my Stevens Favorite (1894 series) actions.

Then I cleaned the bore up and it is too nice a condition to 'scrap', so asked the questions.

Now, with high certainty, it is identified as for use with a Model 44 Action.
The remaining difficulty is the none age discolored 'spigot' and the Sharp edges to the chamber cuts.

The chamber as cut seems to match the .25 Stevens RF cartridge.

So I am leaning toward passing it to one of the posters who first PM'd a request for it.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Adirondacker]

What was the auction no.?  I'd like to find out who the idiot seller was.

"No return" doesn't mean a thing--unless you made the colossal mistake of paying by check or MO.  If you used Paypal, you CAN get a refund, as it was "not as described."  I've fought it out with ebay several times in similar situations, & never lost.

[Chev. William]

Yup, I did.  My Sorrow, but I have not needed to return any thing in the past, I have had a few refunds of purchase price when the items did not arrive (and they were shipped with tracking numbers.

At the moment I have no prospect to obtain a 44 action to use with tis Barrel as it is.

The barrel under discussion cost ~$95.00 shipped to me.

I do have another Model 44 barrel, with a poor bore, in .22LR that I picked up with intent to make a "bull Barrel" for a 1894 series action that is still as received in configuration. cost ~$65.00 shipped.

And I have purchased another "25 Caliber" one that is, from photos, a cut down one with the 'spigot' shape to fit a Model 44.  The photos indicate it has been cut back to the point of removing part of the roll markings (Mfg. marking stops after "J. Stevens"),  Perhaps that one would be a better candidate for a 'Favorite' Bull Barrel project, I will see when it arrives. Cost ~65.00 shipped.

At the moment I am thinking of passing the 25-20/.25 Stevens Long Barrel to a person who first offered it a home with his 'orphaned' model 44 actions, but have not made the final decision yet.

Best Regards,
Chev. William