Anyone paper patching for their '76?

[Oregon Bill]

I know it is more involved, but it seems the cartridges for the 76 would be naturals for paper patching. So far, all the images I have found of original cartridges seem to show plain lead bullets. But I would be very surprised if PP loads were not also available as they were so highly though of in the 1870s and 1880s.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have shied away from PP in a repeater, as I feel that the patch would be disrupted by the repeating action.  (Bad drafting/grammar.)

In the single shot rifles I toyed with the idea but it seems that results are at least the same with grooved & lubed bullets,  AND The whole process is simpler & easier.

[larryo_1]

I have PP for my 40-82 SS and my Sharps for years with no problems but as you say perhaps in a lever gun it might be a tad bothersome.  Good idea tho and my give it a try one of these days.

[dusty texian]

Have rolled it around a few time's. Thought about trying to duplicate the target load for the 1876 Winchester . Have some info,from the 1876 Centennial " rifle book,Look's like if I get a 450 grn. slick bullet and paper patch it ,It would be close to what was used in the 1876 Target Rifle. I would single shot load it of course. I have a M1876 with 28" barrel with the Original Winchester Mid Range tang sight, in .45-75 wcf,The Caliber! Ha . Think It would be kinda fun to see what the old girl will do with a target load . Anyone have any thought's on this . Be glad to hear it. .........Dusty

[Oregon Bill]

Dusty, I was unaware of either a target load or a target rifle in the '76 line. That's very interesting intel -- also the bullet weight.

[dusty texian]

Hey Oregon Bill, there is a great book you may want to pick- up ,The Winchester Model 1876 Centennial rifle, by Herbert G. Houze.You can find it for sale on Ebay,most often. Most of the book's I have on the 1876 Winchester have some info, about the target load's and the use of the 1876 rifle in target competion. Not a lot but some. If I remember right they show a target load ,using the 450 grn. pp bullet over 90 grn. bp. I will look through some of the book's , I remember one has some writing about the 1876 Target rifle doing rather well. I'll dig it up ,so as to not be only going off of memory. I know that some of the feller's on this site know a lot  more about the subject than I do........Dusty

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Dusty;  That 90 gr. PP load must have been with a breach-seated bullet with the powder drop-tubed and compressed with a card to top it.  This is just a guess, so does anyone know?  I have loaded blackpowder like this in a schuetzen style .32 WCF on a Ruger #3 action.

[larryo_1]

That is how I used to do it for my rifles.  Had to make a special tool to seat the bullet ahead of the loaded cartridge.  A bit time consuming but when you are after accuracy and not rapid fire it is not too much of a bother.  I don't remember for sure where I got the idea from but am sure it was in one of my old timey books i got.  If I remember right, I seated my slugs just so they either touched the forcing cone  or the rifllings and then inserted the round and that was it.

[dusty texian]

Sir Charles, Larryo,and Oregon Bill. If you look on page 124 of the book I listed earlier ,it has a picture of the .45-90-450 PP cartridge.It say's .45-90-450 Model 1876 Long Range cartridge which was published on page 41 of the Winchester Company's May 1 1878 general sales catalog . It has a pic. of the cartridge and it is a fixed cartridge .Look's like a PP bullet. Look's like very little of the bullet is inside the case neck. Page 125 of the same book has a writeup on a special rifle built up at Winchester for Long Range Target ,it is listed as sr# 62311 caliber .45-90-500 Long Range Cartridge, left the warehouse December 31 1890. PERTY COOL.  On page 74&75 of the same book there is a small history of the Winchester barrel maker, Captian James E. Stetson using a 1876 Target Rifle at special series of matches,winning a gold prize metal. It states these matches are conducted under the auspices of the National Rifle Association. A note say's he was competing against Peabody's, Springfield's , Sharp's , and Remington Target rifles. Very Cool.If you dont have this book, Ya need Ta get It. Ifn Ya like the M1876 Winchester.........Dusty

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The NWMP used their carbines, but in service condition matches and with issue ammunition. Target shooting in Canada for Imperial competition used the Martini rifle with enough rifles distributed for that purpose. 

Was that target rifle used by Stetson a one-off, or was it routinely used in competition?

[dusty texian]

Sir Charles, the rifle or rifle's that Cpt. Stetson used in the match's I speak of are said to be sample rifle's ,he was a Winchester Employee at the time. The way this book read's ,this match was held just before the M1876  was put into full production and offered to the public. Winchester advertisement's state that the Target load could be used in the standard M1876 rifle. Winchester repeating Arm's did display ad's that picture a( M1876 Winchester Target rifle) . I think the Winchester advertisement implied that any of the 1876 Winchester's are capable of target accuracy. There is a note saying Winchester 1876 being a repeater, was the selling point they were after.I think a powerful and accurate repeater was  all the rage back then . I have read that Target rifle's have been special ordered from Winchester in the 1876  model, at that time Winchester would build a customer a rifle almost any way the customer wanted it. A shipment of M1876 Winchester's with special target sight's ,pistol grip's checkering ,some with longer than standard barrel's set trigger's and special finish, were shiped to the Butte Rifle club. If you look at the ( One of one Thousand rifles ) record's many 1876 rifles were shiped to California and used as target rifle's .  A good book for refrence is (Titled. The story of the Winchester One of One Thousand and One of One Hundred ) by ,Edmund E. Lewis . A very good read I find this topic very interesting and  hope to hear from other's that can add to this topic,and may have more information. .....Dusty

[Buck Stinson]

Winchester never made a production model 1876 as a target rifle.  However, any Winchester could be ordered with target sights and thus used in competition.  I have an octagon barreled deluxe that was special ordered with target (long range) sights front and rear.  This gun is a .45-60, set trigger, case colored, 3X fancy checkered wood, rifle butt and sling swivels.  Barrel length is standard at 28" with full magazine.  The paper patch 450 grain ammo mentioned above was only offered for one year and in very limited quantities.  It appeared in I believe the early May issue of the 1878 catalog and was dropped from the next issue.  This round was nothing more than a .45-75 case with 90 grains of powder and a heavy paper patch bullet.  It was marketed as a target round, but never had any appeal as a lever action rifle cartridge.  The paper patch made it necessary to load the rifle as a single shot, which kinda defeated the purpose of having a repeating rifle.  It is also interesting to note that the very first bullet mold offered for reloading the model 1876 was a "naked" bullet without grease groves.  These are Winchesters second model molds, brass body, single wood handle in .45-75 only.  No other Winchester calibers were produced.  These are considered among the rarest of all Winchester molds.  The bullet shape is identical to the standard .45-75 bullet, even weighs 350 grains.  My mold actually will through a 352 grain bullet when using 16 to 1 lead mix.  I've never loaded any ammunition using these bullets from my mold.  It would be impossible to get any accuracy without at least using a grease cookie.  I'm sure that this was the reason this naked mold was made in such limited production (probably less than 100 units) before the 3rd model mold was produced.  This was the first in a long line of Winchester bullet molds that cast a bullet with grease grooves.

[dusty texian]

Hey Buck ,when you say Winchester never made a model 1876 as a( production target rifle ),it bring's up a question to me, WHY ,why did Winchester have advertisment stating the 1876 Winchester was avaliable in a Target Model ,   Sporting Model , Carbine ,and  Musket Rifle . And if a customer order's a model 1876 Winchester to be built for them for (Target use )and they did  what would it be called ? Now understand I am not saying you are wrong , I just wish you could explain to us What would be the differance from Winchester building a  1876 Target Model rifle ,as they say they did  ,and a Production model  1876 Target rifle that you say they did not build. Most agree Winchester would build a 1876 RIFLE  to the customer's specification's if they where able to. Is there some ammount or number that has to be made , in order to be called a production model?. I understand that Winchester droped the target load , and it was not in production very long, but wasnt it still produced?. Then can it be said that Winchester did not make production target ammunition? Making 1876 Winchester Rifle's and the accourtments in limited number's, rifles ,target ammo slick bullet mould,s just add's to the mystic of the hole Winchester 1876 rifle deal to me . Understand Buck again I am not saying you are wrong ,  Like I said  it bring's up question's  . What is the difference ,betwean a (Model 1876 Winchester Rifle Produced for Target use) ,and a (Production Model 1876 Winchester Target Rifle)" ? many book's have copies of add,s for model 1876 Target Rifles, and 45-75 target ammo,  You got me Confused ! on that one Pard......Dusty

[dusty texian]

Here is an ad for the (Winchester Model 1876 Target Rifle), There are ad's with picture's of the Long Range Amunition  also ........Dusty

[dusty texian]

Back to the original Topic, Oregon Bill,I have the Fixin's comming to try and make a Long Range PP  450 grn.bullet , for the 1876 Winchester.  .45-75 .Will keep Ya posted on my progress. But right Now the Wild Hog's are Calling. See Ya .....Dusty

[Buck Stinson]

First you have to understand that this was a "new to the market' rifle.  In the ad you are referring to, Winchester was trying to sell this "new" model to shooters who were already very familiar with single shots and target shooting.  By saying that it could be used as a "target rifle" and offering special ammo for such purposes, Winchester hoped to capture part of the target shooter market.  The "target model" shown in the wood cut in that catalog was nothing more than what we collectors call a "deluxe grade" sporting rifle.  They could lay claim to the target aspect, simply by showing it with target sights, fancy wood, etc.  The fact is, the target or long range sights could be ordered for any Winchester rifle.  The 1876 Winchester deluxe I mentioned in my earlier post is of the exact same configuration, including sights, as the one pictured in the catalog cut.  The only difference between my gun and the one in the catalog is that my gun has factory sling swivels.  Standard sporting rifles had plain wood, plain trigger and standard rifle barrel of 28" and standard barrel sights.  Almost 92% of the model 1876 rifles sold were standard everyday sporting rifles.  We're talking just rifles here.  This does not include carbines and muskets.   It didn't take long for Winchester to realize that they could not sell customers on the idea that the 1876 could be a long range target rifle.  Hopes of competing with Sharps, Remington and Ballard, were simply out of the question.  After the first introduction as a "target rifle" the advertising was changed to offer this as a deluxe grade sporting rifle.  Customers bought the new wording hook, line and sinker.  After that, they sold hundreds of fancy deluxe grade sporting rifles, with and without the long range sights.  The 1876 Winchester deluxe guns you mentioned that were ordered by members of the Butte Rifle Club were not for use in competition, but rather fancy rifles that wealthy men wanted to own.  Lewis has a list of ten of those members in his book and every single one of them were among the wealthiest individuals in Montana at that time.  Most of those rifles still exist in private collections here in the state.  Some are in near new condition, while others spent their lives in a saddle scabbard on horse back.

[dusty texian]

Buck there is not a problem with me understanding the Model 1876 was new to the market in 1876 &77 . I think one of my post said the rifle that Captain Stetson used at the Creedmore Target Special Match's  was a SAMPLE RIFLE . Cant get much newer than that . And I understand that most of the extra fancy rifles were purchased by the wealthy . Who bought them does not matter . What matter's is Did Winchester Advertise a Target rifle in Model 1876 . And Manufacture Amunition for a Target Model of 1876,no matter how few, And that is what I said! And what is the difference betwean a( Production Target Model ) as you call it. And a Model 1876 that was Produced  by Winchester for Target Use.? Winchester called it a Target Model And Winchester said it could be used as a Target Model,according to you,and offered special ammo for such purpose.  Your word's .You also said Winchester hoped to capture part of the  Target Shooter market. .   I agree that Winchester thought that marketing the rifle 1876 as a repeater in Deluxe would be more profitable , But I also think that what started out as the Winchester model 1876 Target rifle is one and the same! as the Deluxe model 1876 WITH TARGET SIGHT'S SET TRIGGER PISTOL GRIP,  same rifle different advertisment. And to say Winchester NEVER MADE A PRODUCTION TARGET RIFLE  MODEL 1876 ,IS FALSE .  I will leave you to your opinion and me to mine ......Dusty

[Buck Stinson]

I agree with you 100%, so I guess my question is, what's the problem.  My point was that when Winchester (early on) couldn't convince buyers to purchase this gun as a target rifle, they changed ONLY the wording in their advertising to make it a saleable product.  They did not make any changes in the rifle itself and I never claimed they did.  I guess you misunderstood what I said.

[dusty texian]

Your right Buck. I will drop this subject......Dusty .