Re: WTS 1860 RM Cartridge Conversion

[Fox Creek Kid]

Well .... I guess I'm probably in the minority on this one ..... But ...... I don't PERSONALLY think any of the conversions that chamber 6 rounds should have been built in .45 Colt.  The correct size guns didn't have enough cylinder.  Uberti scaled everything up to fit the 45.  Marketi...

My Richards Type IIs are large and clunky.  They weigh a tone and don't balance for spit...

I agree on the point re chambering, .45 Colt is too big for the axis/forcing cone dimensions. However, many paint the Uberti '60 Army conversions as Monster Truck sized in regards to an original and to be frank it's not really that much difference IMO and it helps those who shoot Duelist for a steadier grip. It's certainly not a revolver for two hand speed shooters. No conversion is for that matter.

[griswold]

Well I spent some time reading Wolf's page that you linked (I have looked at it before) and I have two concerns:

First, Wolf did not do anything here but he does show pictures of some work done by gunsmiths. If memory serves the "Saber River" guns were built by Kenny Howell? although they remind me of Bob MIllingtons work and then there is some text concerning the German smith named Nedbal. Also some references to Uberti Open Tops and Richards pistol.

So.........

Second, which of these are you referencing?

If you reread my post that you quoted you will see that I said there will not be a true type 1 "drop in" conversion because of the things I referenced that have to be done to the original pistol. I did not say that they cannot be built! Millington does the best one out there and I was only saying that because the bretheren here keep harping about the price. I have my own take on a "look alike" in fact pen and paper met today over lunch and I am thinking about some designs

HH

Hoof
The Belgian guns are the ones I am referencing. Their cylinders are slightly larger than the original colt but smaller than store bought Uberti conversions.........so my question concerns the .44 colt chambering. Is it safe for a C&B conversion or just procure a beefed up Uberti conversion?

[Hoof Hearted]

griswold

I do not believe that Nedbal is using an original Centaure cylinder in his Richards conversion.

You might be able to hand make a two stage pawl, bend it way over to the right and get it to index but it wont do it very many times and probably won't do it reliable from chamber to chamber...........I'll try to pst some pics showing you what I am referring to.

Safe? this is all in the hands of the reloader.

[griswold]

griswold

Safe? this is all in the hands of the reloader.

BP loads only.

Here is more information from his website concerning Wolfs conversions. Plus photos of a "freshly lathed" cylinder.

     

http://www.1960nma.org/Conversions/Conversions-The%20Making%20of%20the%20RM%20Conversion-23.05.11.htm

Somewhere in his writings he indicated he used smokeless loads. But did not expound further.
Is this safe what is shown here or not?
Gris......

[Hoof Hearted]

Griswold

Obviously not the factory cylinder............
See this thread:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,48692.msg600339.html

[griswold]

Griswold

Obviously not the factory cylinder............
See this thread:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,48692.msg600339.html

Hoof
I read your other post and it goes back to my original question and your comments earlier on the bolt notch being thin. Is it safe for this caliber and original size or should I give up this quest and just get a Uberti over sized .44.

Griswold.

[Hoof Hearted]

Hoof
I read your other post and it goes back to my original question and your comments earlier on the bolt notch being thin. Is it safe for this caliber and original size or should I give up this quest and just get a Uberti over sized .44.

Griswold.

If you want a repro of a type 1 in 44 Colt call Bob Millington at armsport llc. He does the best one in the USA.

NO WHERE in that post am I talking about the "bolt notch being thin" as you are saying here..........
I am not going to tell you what is "SAFE" that is not something I want to bet my life's accomplishments or my insurance policy on!

You seem to be stuck on your question and are not listening to my answer. I will explain this in person if you'd like just call me. My number is on my webiste (address in my signature line).

Truly
HH

[griswold]

If you want a repro of a type 1 in 44 Colt call Bob Millington at armsport llc. He does the best one in the USA.

NO WHERE in that post am I talking about the "bolt notch being thin" as you are saying here..........
I am not going to tell you what is "SAFE" that is not something I want to bet my life's accomplishments or my insurance policy on!

You seem to be stuck on your question and are not listening to my answer. I will explain this in person if you'd like just call me. My number is on my webiste (address in my signature line).

Truly
HH

Thanks Hoof, you answered my question.

Gris.

[The Irish Mick]

-Lads,
I have been following your comments with extreme interest!!!!!!!!!!!!  I am just getting into SASS, and I have an opprotunity to purchase a new 2nd generation F1200 series M1860 revolving pistol.  Also, a near new, less than 100 rnds fired, R&D four screw Richards conversing with a two (2) digit serial number.  My question is, is this Richards conversiion correct, or is it a so so copy.
Thanks for you assistance, it it really appreciated.

-The Irish Mick
Arizona Territory

PS Also included two (2) beautiful costom holsters.

[Major 2]

R&D ?  Is Kenny Howell ...they don't get much better.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Since I have been cited here some clarification is in order regarding my Centaure conversions.
Karl Nedbal did a couple for me, namely Thuer, Richards, Richards Transitional, Richards-Mason, "Mystery". Klaus Mumme did three Long Cylinder Conversions for me.
Nedbal Centaure conversions: all of the breech loaders are .44 Colt cal. for inside lubed for .429 dia bullets, all have newly lathed cylinders.
Currently I am using the 8" barreled Centaure Richards as my back-up gun in CAS activities. Had to use her once only.
Only for the Thuer conversion Nedbal used the original percussion cylinder.
We planned on converting one Centaure to a Richards Transitional in .44 Colt outside lubed bullets (!). For this project the percussion cylinder was planned to be used. Nedbal felt there would be enough metal in the rebate area to be safe ... but he was concerned regarding the cylinder notches which the Belgians cut too deep on the percussion pistols. If we would have proceeded with that project he would have welded the original notches shut and recut them to less depth. We eventually agreed to do this R2 project like the others for the inside lubed ammo with a newly lathed cylinder.
Mumme Centaure Long Cylinder conversions: they are again for the .44 Colt inside lubed cartridges. They have newly lathed cylinders. They are my main match pistols for more than 2 years now.
I rarely shoot BP loaded cartridges through my conversions, > 95 % smokeless ammo with 200 grainers. All my .44 CAS match loads exceed factor 112,5 in the 5,5" barreled Centaure Long Cylinder conversions. Cases used are mostly from Black Hills factory ammo and some Starline, too.
Hope that helps
Long Johns Wolf

[Fox Creek Kid]

R&D ?  Is Kenny Howell ...they don't get much better.

Not so fast. I traded for one of his early '60 Army 2nd Model Richards (yes, he made a few) conversions in 2000 and it was a total POS. I found out it had been back to him two times for repairs. It was made on an ASM percussion revolver and was wretched quality work on his part. The bore slugged OVAL!!!! He must have crushed the liner while inserting it. The chambers were all over the map. Luckily, I got to return the gun to the man who traded it to me. It was then that I learned from someone who knew Kenny well that his first guns were rough.  

If I were to see one today for sale I would look it over with a fine toothed comb and slug the bore & chambers if possible.

[Hoof Hearted]

I too have seen good and bad guns with the R&D name on them. I have heard that some were not built by Kenny but rather someone in his shop. I personally have an 1861 Navy conversion that I like and an 1858 Remington Army done as a "Navy" conversion that exibts no "flare" and is pretty poor in quality.

HH

Not so fast. I traded for one of his early '60 Army 2nd Model Richards (yes, he made a few) conversions in 2000 and it was a total POS. I found out it had been back to him two times for repairs. It was made on an ASM percussion revolver and was wretched quality work on his part. The bore slugged OVAL!!!! He must have crushed the liner while inserting it. The chambers were all over the map. Luckily, I got to return the gun to the man who traded it to me. It was then that I learned from someone who knew Kenny well that his first guns were rough.  

If I were to see one today for sale I would look it over with a fine toothed comb and slug the bore & chambers if possible.

[The Irish Mick]

Well Lads,
I do wish you could see this one.  Any reproduction firearm can be a piece of junk, it is indeed the luck of the draw.  This particular R&D " M1860 Colt revolver altered for metallic cartridge" ( US Ordnance Dept. termanology ) is spot on as to finish,  cylinder, and bore.  I would really like to hear from those who have actually shot this model revolver.  Heresay does not stand in a court of law nor on the firing line! 
Now, it's off to my range for the true test.

-The Irish Mick
Arizona Territory

[Hoof Hearted]

Irish

My suggestion to you (as a mod here) is to start a new thread in this forum (STORM) regarding your new aquistion replete with phots and test targets!

As an aside we really were trying to help so you didn't buy a "pig in a poke"

Yours, HH

Well Lads,
I do wish you could see this one.  Any reproduction firearm can be a piece of junk, it is indeed the luck of the draw.  This particular R&D " M1860 Colt revolver altered for metallic cartridge" ( US Ordnance Dept. termanology ) is spot on as to finish,  cylinder, and bore.  I would really like to hear from those who have actually shot this model revolver.  Heresay does not stand in a court of law nor on the firing line! 
Now, it's off to my range for the true test.

-The Irish Mick
Arizona Territory

[The Irish Mick]

-Sir,
Will comply.  As soon as the 'extreme fire ' situation has been lifted, it went into effect yesterday!  Hopefully as soon as the Monsoon season starts I cna take her out for a romp..  I appreciate you taking the time.  Even though I have been shooting muzzle loaders for many years, cartridge guns are somewhat new to me, and considering the current prices, I absolutely do not want to buy a "pig in a poke'
Thanks.

-The Irish Mick
Arizona Territroy