.44-40 rounds won't fit new Smokewagon

[HL Hunley]

I've just bought a Taylor's Smokewagon, .44-40, I LOVE it! She's a real beauty to look at, and functions smooth as silk. BUT...

My  .44-40 reloaded rounds don't fit. The cartridges don't sit all the way into the chambers. (These are casings that have never been through the Smokewagon).

UNfired, new brass fits fine. (as does the brass that has gone through the Smokewagon).

It is not length or diameter, but I believe the bottleneck/shoulder. The unfired Starline brass has no bottleneck when new (at least all I've bought), just a slight taper. Firing conforms it to give the bottleneck. So my other brass, bottlenecked already, has a longer base-to-shoulder dimension than the Smokewagon likes.

My finished rounds meet the .44-40 charts, but it seems the Smokewagon chambers have "short shoulders."

Is this me, or do you think the cylinder has to be re-machined?

I'm a greenhorn, and I figured the chambers were all straight thru- reams, I didn't think they had "shoulders." I've contacted Taylors, but haven't heard back.

Any thoughts/experiences are greatly appreciated.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...My  .44-40 reloaded rounds don't fit. The cartridges don't sit all the way into the chambers...

UNfired, new brass fits fine. (as does the brass that has gone through the Smokewagon)...

A.  Are your reloads' cases full length resized? You neglected to state this.

B.  have you slugged the chamber mouths to determine correct bullet diameter? This is CRITICAL in a 44-40.

[Abilene]

Ubertis 44-40 chambers tend to be on the tight size.  Take one of your previously fired (not in the smokewagon) cases and resize it but don't put in a bullet, and see if it fits in the chamber.  That will tell you if the shoulder is okay or not.  If okay, then on to step two.  Many Uberti owners have to use only Winchester or Starline brass if they are using .429 bullets.  Remington and some other cases are too thick in the neck.  If you use smaller diameter bullets then this is less of a problem.  Sometimes people have also had a problem if they use too much crimp which can cause a slight bulge in the brass at the crimp area.

[HL Hunley]

Thanks for the replies.

Cases are just under .44-40 specs for OAL. DIA is OK for all (new, old, snap caps that fit easy), as in about the same.

I resized a case ridiculously short (I'm talking crazy!) and it still wouldn't fit.

The only thing that works is unfired, slightly tapered Starline.

Am using .427 projectiles, but even cases with no proj still won't fit.

[yeti76620]

I'mma gunnnna throw a couple coppers into this discussion and it may be just way off base but it sounds like at this time any suggestion is worth a look....

Folks who shoot 38 or 44 specials into their magnum cylinders get a carbon build up up in the cylinder and when they go to put the magnum round inna em they do not go all the way in 'cause the carbon shimmmms 'em out 'till that carbon gets scrub'd out.

Maybe?

Yeti76620

[Four Eyes Henry]

I have a old Lyman die set that tapers on resizing, they'll fit every 44-40 even with .429 bullets.
I used to have a Lee die set which also set the shoulder to high and had the base machined off a little so it could go deeper.

Hope this helps.

[Old Top]

I was having the same problems with 44-40 I ended up running the finished round back through the resizeing die.

Old Top

[HL Hunley]

Thanks guys, I might investigate the dies/resizing.

I appreciate the idea on the 44 buildup, but this lil puppy is brandy-new!

Other than this, I do recommend 'em, they are purrrty.

Cheers

[longinosoap]

I had this problem also. What I did was try the case in the cylinder and turn after EVERY step of the process. Tedious, I know, but I wanted to try to find out what was causing the problem.

Empty case went in after resizing. All fit. Dump the powder and seat bullet. All fit. Crimp. AhHa. Here was the problem. About every other round would stick. I concluded that it wasn't the neck bulging but the base of the case, for some reason. May be wrong, but that is what I found after measuring. I use only black powder in 44-40, the only way to shoot this cartridge IMHO, so I thought after seating and crimping, the powder was getting more compressed and bulging the case at the bottom. My theory, anyway.

Remedy was to lighten the crimp. After doing this, only about 1 in 20 were "tight". But most would work.

I tried Old Top's suggestion to resize the finished round on a couple of those that didn't fit. Scared the beejeebbers out of me but it worked!. Now, though, I just run those rounds through the 66.

I use Lee dies.

Hope this helps.

[Fingers McGee]

Had the same problem with one of my Uberti Cattlemen a few years back.  Turned out the chamber dimensions were a little tighter than normal and setting the shoulder on the cases back a couple thousandths more did the trick.

A Redding Profile Crimp die did the trick also.

FM

[longinosoap]

Fingers,
What do you do to the die to set the shoulder back? Thanks

[John Taylor]

If you look at a factory new round the shoulder is way back. When fire the shoulder will move to the shoulder in the chamber and may not fit in any chamber that has the shoulder in a different spot. To get the shoulder pushed back it may be necessary to grind a bit off the reloading die so it will move the shoulder back. I say grind because a file will not go through the case hardened surface of a die. This is best done with a lathe and a tool post grinder. You only want to take enough off to allow the cartridge to fit the gun. The case hardness may only be a few thou thick.

[Pettifogger]

I have tried almost every .44-40 die set available.  Except for one die set, they ALL required machining the base of the sizer die to set the shoulder back far enough to chamber in all my .44-40s.  The only die that did not require trimming was the Hornady New Dimension series.

[John Taylor]

When setting the shoulder back, don't go any more than needed. If the brass gets worked to much in the shoulder it will soon fail.

[HL Hunley]

Pards, you are all a wealth of info.

Being a greenhorn I was a mighty scared, but i adjusted my die. Vee-ola, as the French say, problem solved instantly. I was afeared I'd have to machine the die. (I have a small lathe but I can only make swarf with it - cal me SwarfMaster.)

JT - I don't think (I hope) the shoulder is too far back now. My original rounds were just under the recommend .44-40 specs, so how can the snap-caps and rounds that fit be sooo much different? It boggles my mind.

I like the marker idea for really seeing where things are.

For now, I seem to be back u and running. But I', going to copy down all these info from this thread, it's fantastic, and might be useful for the future. Thank you again gents!!!

Cheers,
HL

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

HL Hunley;  Don't go down with the boat.  Stick around. Not only do we learn from each other , we have a lot of friendly fun.

[Coal Creek Griff]

I've always been curious about grinding the die. For those who don't have a lathe, would it work to chuck the die in a power drill and spin it while touching it on a bench grinder. Would that help keeping the removal of the metal even?

CC Griff

[Pettifogger]

I've never seen a power drill with a chuck big enough to hold a die body.  If you have one it would certainly help.  On some dies you have to remove .060 or sometimes more.  When you have removed that much material it leaves a sharp edge at the bottom of the die.  You have to be able to remove the edge and polish the die so it doesn't gouge your brass.

[Coal Creek Griff]

Thanks for the input.  I hadn't thought about the sharp edge left on the inside edge at the bottom of the die.  Here's my idea.  My die is a Lee die.  I can back out the decapping pin far enough to get it out of the way, then tighten it down.  I can put the top end of the pin in the chuck on my drill.  Once I've ground off the proper amount, I can use a reamer in a Dremel tool while the die is spinning in the drill to chamfer the inside edge (I should be able to touch up the outside edge on the grinder and with sandpaper).  I can use sandpaper with the die spinning to finish the job.

I've been thinking about trying this for a while, but it didn't make much difference until I recently bought a Pietta pistol in 44 WCF.  I'd like to be able to interchange the ammo between that and my Uberti 1873, which has slightly different chamber dimensions.

I think I'll give this a try tomorrow.  I may destroy my die, but I think I'll risk it...

CC Griff

[wildman1]

Use 400 or 500 automotive finishing paper to smooth the die after you finish grinding it. WM