Marine Corps Uniform in Cuba Question

[minipainter]

Hello everyone,
Technically, I shouldn't be on this forum because I am not a reenactor (a physical disability prohibits that) so instead I express my love and interest of 18th and 19th century American  military history by painting miniatures of the period. While researching uniforms of the Spanish American War, I came across your forum quite by accident and discovered a potential source of answers to all my questions. I hope you wouldn't mind answering a few pressing questions for which I am finding contradictory information. It deals with the Marines in Cuba and Puerto Rico. My figures (which are 28mm tall) are sculpted with the Marine cap, shirt (with the sleeves rolled up), pants and leggings. My question is, what colors would the shirt and pants have been for... say the period around the battle for Cuzco Well? I've heard, white shirts and sky blue pants,  dark blue and sky blue and dark blue and tan (khaki). Which combination (or something entirely different) would be most accurate?
If I might press my luck and ask two more...how "sky" was the blue for the pants? Looking at some of the vendor sights and other sources, I often see what I would consider more of a "medium" blue. Would the troops in 1898 have worn the same basic color as in the Civil war or had the pants gotten darker by then?
Lastly, the hat. I've  seen pictures that range anywhere from a lighter grey/tan to almost dark brown. Was the hat color different between branches, regiments (regular vs volunteer) or even individuals?
Again, I would appreciate any help you might provide. I do so admire what you do and share your passion to preserve and honor our history....just in a slightly different way. Believe me, if I in any way could, I'd be out there with you, but it wasn't meant to be I guess.
I've taken enough of your time, I will continue to follow along reading your forum and hope someone may have a few spare minutes to get me the info I need.
Thanks everyone,
Carl

[Forty Rod]

Okay, this is not an answer to your question, but are you able to get out and attend some of our events close to where you live?  (You didn't say where you are located.)  You could observe and still enjoy without participating.  The camaraderie is as great as the rest.

If transportation is an issue, there may even be someone willing to pick you up and take you along for the ride.

[minipainter]

Forty, I'm in Western Pa, on the Ohio border between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, a city called Hermitage. I'm actually on Exit 1 of I-80 if that tells you anything. I'm not aware of any events in my area but would surely go if there were any out this way.

Carl

[Sgt. John McAfferty]

Hello Minipainter,

The period from 1885 to about 1905 was a very transitional one for the Marines.  The landing a Cuzco Wells was performed by a battalion of Marines put together from the ships' detachements available.  Primarily they wore the M1892 undress blouse and sky blue trousers with 1" scarlet stripes for NCOs.  The officers would have had scarlet stripes also, but I'm not sure of their width.  Chevrons for NCOs would have been gold stripes on a scarlet background and very large.  These chevrons were worn from about 1859 until around 1902 or so.

The classic campaign uniform of a fore and aft campaign hat, leggings, khaki trousers and dark blue shirts was implemented during the Span-Am war, but after Cuzco Wells. 

A great internet source is www.usmilitariaforum.com  They have much information in one place.  Most of my research has been gleaned from reading many, many primary sources, such as letters, supply requisitions, orders, etc.  Most are not readily available.
Another great source, believe it or not, are the movies The Wind and the Lion and 55 Days at Peking.  The uniforms you see there are pretty much what the Marines wore from the Span-Am War until around 1905 when khaki started becoming more prevelant in campaign uniforms.  Good Luck in your search.

[minipainter]

Thanks Sgt John,
Just to clarify, would the NCOs have had chevrons on the M1892 undress blouse? What about the shade of sky blue...can you give any insight on that?

Thanks for the link! I see they even have a modeling section!

I appreciate you taking the time to reply...

Carl

[Blair]

I would agree with what Sgt. John McAfferty suggested.
I don't often suggest film/movies as a good source for documenting uniforms/clothing from any given time period.
However, the two films he suggests are very much the exception for Campaign types of uniforms for the USMC from that period.
You may also want to cross check these two films with the uniforms you can see in the movie "Rough Riders" for the US 10th Cav. for comparison in Campaign style uniforms between Army and USMC within the time period you are looking at.

With all this said... you will have about 6 to 8 hours of very good film viewing
My best and enjoy,
 Blair

[Forty Rod]

Forty, I'm in Western Pa, on the Ohio border between Pittsburgh and Cleveland, a city called Hermitage. I'm actually on Exit 1 of I-80 if that tells you anything. I'm not aware of any events in my area but would surely go if there were any out this way.

Carl

I'm a mite west of you, Carl, just about 35 miles east of Los Angeles.

Maybe someone closer will chime in here before too long.  Good luck.

[Drydock]

http://www.homeofheroes.com/wallofhonor/spanish_am/images/06_marines_guantanamo.jpg

THis is decent image, as it shows both the blue and Khaki trousers that may have been worn.  (though I do not believe there would have been chevrons on the Noncoms shirt at this time) I personaly think they had khaki, IE all shipboard marines were issued a set of tropical white uniforms, easily died a suitable color.  Why would they not have worn these ashore in a tropical enviorment?

Would Capt. Niederlander please report to the barracks!

[pony express]

Minipainter, I can't specifically help with the Marine uniform information, But can tell tou that while some GAF members are reenactors, many are not. Many(like me) come from Cowboy action shooting, and "enlisted" from there. I don't know your specific disability, but when possible, most groups will find a way to accomodate. at the last Grand Muster I attended one man on my squad needed two crutches to walk, but could stand and shoot with just one. While that's not really competitive from a time standpoint, I think he enjoyed himself as much as anyone there.

Unfortunately, as far as I know, the farthest east GAF only event it in Illinois, still a few states west of you. Mostly we just mix in with various CAS clubs, justr dressed military instead of cowboy.

[minipainter]

Thank you all for the replies, information and suggestions. I appreciate all of you taking the time to answer.
Pony Express I'll start looking around the east for events I may be able to attend and see what happens. I have a son outside of Denver so maybe I can coordinate a visit with a GAF event! Before yesterday I had never even heard of GAF...maybe some sort of sign!?!
But again, thanks to all of you for your time.

Carl

[Pitspitr]

Well Carl
About July 10 jump on the big road (I-80) Head west about 1 1/2 to 2 days hard ride to Grand Island Nebraska. Head NW from there to Sargent and join us for the Department of Missouri Muster. 2 of our most expert members in terms of Marine uniforms knowledge will be there. You have already heard from Drydock, and Ned Niederlander will likely chime in here soon. Both will be at the DoM Muster. Hopefully General US Scout will check in soon. He has an outstanding knowledge of Corp history as well.

[Guns Garrett]

I have done a bit of research on SAW-era Marines, and, in fact retired myself from the USMC after 21 years.  History and traditions are very important to Marines, and I just lapped it up.

In Cuba and the Philippines, Marines wore a mix of types of uniforms.  Some (at the beginning of hostilities) came from ship's detatchments, and later units were deployed from the States.  Often Marines within the same unit or company may have worn different uniforms.

The service uniform trousers were "sky blue" - close to what is also called "baby blue", or "Carolinia Blue" (as in UNC), not quite as dark as what the Marines currently wear.  NCO's had a 1" stripe on their trousers along the outside seam; officers had a 1 1/4" stripe.  Only the blue trousers had these stripes.  For field wear, khaki leggings were worn by both officer and enlisted.  NCO's cheverons were rather large - about 7 1/2" wide, and were worn on the outer jacket/blouse ONLY - not on shirts.  They were gold stripes, on a red backing, worn "points up" on both sleeves midway between the elbow and shoulder.  .  Officers wore rank insignia on the collar of both the jacket, and the shirts.  Officers also denoted rank with "Austrian knots" on the sleeves of the dress and undress/fatigue jackets, the latter being in black mohair braid (or white braid on the summer/tropical white jacket); dress jackets gold braid.

Regular fatigue shirts were dark blue wool, of the same pattern as used by the Army - but with WHITE mother-of-pearl buttons on both the placket, the two breast pockets, and cuffs.

The tropical/summer uniform was white linen, for both officer and enlisted.  Soiling due to combat, plus deliberate staining with tea or coffee, soon made all white uniforms a beige or khaki color.

Headgear was either the khaki field hat, creased fore-and-aft with the Marine Emblem on the left side of the crown, or the blue service cap, which was the same pattern as the Army's 1895 cap, sort of a pillbox-style with a visor.  The cap was also worn with a white cover for tropical wear.  Enliste wore a gold Marine Emblem on the front of the cap, officers wore silver.  White spiked helmets were for dress, and rarely worn in combat.

The standard weapons of the Marines in 1898 was the Winchester-Lee Straight-pull  M1895 rifle.  It had a distinctive trigger guard, having the magazine box in front of the trigger.  Some Marines received Krag rifles, which had the magazine on the right side of the action.  Field gear consisted of a wide, dark blue web belt with black leather pockets for holding 5-round clips of ammo for the Lee rifle.  The belt also had dark blue cloth suspenders for load bearing.  The Lee's 8-inch bayonet was also carried on the belt.  Marines who later got Krag rifles may have continued to use the Lee belt, or used the Army Mills web belt (either blue or khaki) which carried the cartidges in loops sewn to the belt.  Officers wore a black leather pistol/sword belt, thought it is doublful the swords were ever carried in combat.  An officer would have carried either a cartridge conversion of the 1851/61 Navy colt revolver, an M1892 double-action revolver, or possibly even a Colt Single Action. (Marines did not get their "own" pistol until 1905)

More detailed uniform info here, for all services:  http://www.grandarmyofthefrontier.org/

The canteen was round, covered in Khaki cloth and carried over the shoulder on a black leather strap

[minipainter]

Thanks Guns and everyone who took the time to reply. You've all been a tremendous help. Hope I can come to you if I have any future questions...


Carl

[Major 2]

Are you familiar with the Osprey Men at War series ?

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/The-Spanish-American-War-and-Philippine-Insurrection_9781846031243

I would bet you are, but if not they cover just about every period, with many color drawings....


Oh ! and "Technically" you are MOST welcome to be here 

[MUD MARINE]

I always goto the Marine Corps Museum staff in Quantico.

I had my DI on my back during prone in 1956 and just barely earned Marksman. It was just a bar. It told everyone "Here's a Crappy Shooter".  :-(  Later, things got batter. My first pistol badge was the Basic Badge. I had SMG, bayonet, BAR, Grenade and, of course, Pistol Expert plus requal bars.Over the years, I misplaced my bars. I would like to find a source for them so I could leave that to my son, Captain of Marines. He has shot Expert Rifle and Sharpshooter Pistol. I get on his case about shootingthe pissant 9mm. :-)

Any info would be appreciated'

2533, 2572 & 8654

[Drydock]

http://www.vanguardmil.com/

[cpt dan blodgett]

www.grunt.com

[Niederlander]

Welcome to the forum, Minipainter!  I used to paint miniatures myself, although I stuck to the 54mm size.  I would have replied sooner, but Guns covered everything much more thoroughly than I could have.  If you're painting any officers, they seem to have worn the Fatigue Jacket in the field, even in Cuba, which had to be a little uncomfortable.  It was almost identical in design and color to the British "Patrol Jacket" of the period.  The Marine Museum in D.C. sent me pictures of Smedley Butler's fatigue jacket, and it seems to be a very dark blue, almost black.  According to my research, the dark blue wool field shirt was not the same pattern as the Army shirt.  The Marine one had a band collar instead of a stand and fall collar, and it had no pockets.  It also had white buttons, as opposed to black, as Guns indicated.  I think the confusion came from Marines wearing Army issue clothing after their Marine issue stuff wore out in the Philippines.  I've got pictures of Marines wearing their pattern shirt, but no one seems to have an extant example.  My guess would be they all were worn until they were rags.  Of course, this makes absolutely NO difference in what you're doing with the information!  You'll have to post pictures of some of your painted figures when you're done with them.

[minipainter]

Thanks to you too Niederlander...so the fatigue jacket you refer to, is that the one with the black moehair trim or the one piped in red? And just to clarify, the "band collar" you refer to is the standing collar as on the Marine Corps dress uniform of today as opposed to the "stand and fall" which, I assume, is more like a conventional shrit collar? or is it something different.

Again thanks to all of you and a special thanks to those of you her served in one branch or another.


Carl

[Niederlander]

It was the one with the black mohair trim.  The band collar is just that, a band that goes around the neck, as opposed to a regular shirt collar.  I'll see if I can come up with a couple of pictures to post as soon as I can find them.