Spencer rifle Franco Prussian War 1870

[Fred]

Hello , My name is Fred and I'm French . I get today a Spencer rifle and I would like to know if someone could help me to find it's service in American Civil War with the serial number .  

The rifle is Model 1860 , with TJS stamp and stabller cut-off , the serial number is 10355 .

I would like to know if it's possible to attribute the gun to a US unit and I would like to know if this model was sent to France in 1870 .

Will send pictures soon .

Thank you very much for your help .

[Jobe Holiday]

Congratulations on acquiring an original Spencer Rifle, and welcome to this forum. I hope you will enjoy it as much as I do!
J.

[Arizona Trooper]

Although your number is not reported, the nearby reported serial numbers are in the 10th Michigan cavalry, including 10353 and 10366, or the 11th Kentucky, including 10344 and 10360.

Since yours has the Stabler cutoff, it was rebuilt at Springfield after the American Civil War. It should have a 3 groove, 50 caliber bore. 

It is very likely that the 1215 rifles that were rebuilt at Springfield were done for US agents operating as fronts for French buyers, since America was officially neutral.

Congratulations on your rather rare rifle! And, welcome to SSS.

[Two Flints]

Hi Fred,

What a terrific first name   Your alias has been added to the SSS posse list, you are now a member of the Spencer Shooting Society.

I already sent you an Email about your rifle maybe being issued to a member of the 10th
Michigan Volunteer Cavalry.  Thanks Arizona Trooper!

Fred  I mean Two Flints

[Fred]

Thanks everybody for those informations about my Spencer rifle , I would like to post pictures but i don't understand how I can do , is there any tutorial about sending pictures ?
Fred .

[Two Flints]

Fred,

Send your photos to me at fsgrand2@fairpoint.net, and I will post them for you.

You will need an online  photo storing website like Photobucket to upload photos to any web site.

Two Flints

[Fred]

Hi , Thanks " Two Flints " , I find the way to put online pictures .

This is my Spencer Mdl 1860 , found in France this week , the Spencer come from an old collection and had never gone in a gun show for sale , it's in original condition untouched since 150 years . I'm pretty sure this rifle have been received in France in 1870 for the Franco Prussian war . Wood and metal have original finish and the barrel is in mirror condition .

[Fred]

Other pictures :

[Fred]

Last pictures :



[imghttp://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/Fred414/Spencer/DSC00001_zps4f6c2fbd.jpg]http://[/img]



Fred .

[Fred]

final :





Fred .

[G.W. Strong]

Very nice!

[Fred]

I've got some questions to American collectors  , You can see on my Spencer that the marking is a little bit deleted , is it usual to see deleted marking on Mdl 1860 Spencer in original condition ? ( the serial number 10335 is a end production , maybe the tools were " tired " ) 
My Spencer is one of the 1215 post civil war altered by Springfield and I would like to know if this model is commun in United States or if  this rifle is a little bit rare , if the rifle is rare it will tend to prove that this model was send to France ( most of the Spencer rifles send to France were New Model  army and navy and carbines Mdl 65 and New model ) .

Thanks for your help , Fred .

[Ibgreen]

Hello Fred!  Nice rifle you have!  I as well have a spencer rifle that vacationed in France.  My spencer is a NM that is completely void of any markings.  Only way I know it was over there was that a French national gifted it to me.  His family founded Kressman Winery and had a large collection of european used rifles and carbines. 

[Fred]

Hi Ibgreen , your Spencer came back home ! your Spencer crossed the Atlantic ocean two times ! From october/ 17 /1870 to December /1 /1870 we receive 37071 Spencer carbines and 5367 rifles with 17 millions 56/50 cartridges . Rifles were used by " Franc tireur " units  and " recon units " ( not sure of the English translation ) . Carbines were used in many units , artillerie , cavalry , volunters ...

Fred .

[Ibgreen]

Here is a link to my Franco Spencer. http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,42956.0.html

We may need to start a French section of the Spencer Society.  

I don't think so  Two Flints

[Herbert]

I've got some questions to American collectors  , You can see on my Spencer that the marking is a little bit deleted , is it usual to see deleted marking on Mdl 1860 Spencer in original condition ? ( the serial number 10335 is a end production , maybe the tools were " tired " )  
My Spencer is one of the 1215 post civil war altered by Springfield and I would like to know if this model is commun in United States or if  this rifle is a little bit rare , if the rifle is rare it will tend to prove that this model was send to France ( most of the Spencer rifles send to France were New Model  army and navy and carbines Mdl 65 and New model ) .

Thanks for your help , Fred . The markings were slitly to completly deleted when the rifles were re-ferbidhed by Spingfied aroumorey to 1865 spects.These conversion rifles are not common in any condition(yours is a exalent example making it rare)I belive most of these conversions were sold to France as were the vast majority of 67 and NM rifles,even some unconverted 56-56 civil war rifles turn up over there

[Fred]

Thank you Herbert for the informations . You are right when you say that we receive in France civil war rifles caliber 56-56 . We have some account telling that soldiers received weapons with the  wrong cartridges . When the weapons were unloaded from steamboats , officers didn't know that two calibers were available and they can't make a difference between a civil war era rifle and New Models . Soldiers who received a NM carbine received also 56-56 cartridges ...

[Fredlambert]

Hi everybody , I was cleaning the bore of my spencer rifle Mdl 1860 with stabler cut-off found in France ( 1870 Franco Prussian war importation ) and I was surprised to see that the bore is 6 grooves and not 3 groove . The rifle kept it's original civil war bore caliber 56-56 but was updated with stabler cut-off ( so would be in 56-50 caliber )  ... is anybody have seen this before ? . There is no doubt that the rifle was sent to France in 1870 because it was found in a French attic with many dry grease al over the rifle ( It take a long time to clean it but the rifle was in untouched condition under the grease ) .

An other question : is anybody have informations about the American volunteers that joined France in 1870 to fight the Prussians ? There was an American legion of " free shooters " ( Francs tireurs ) ( Maybe us civil war veterants ) .

I've got an original telegram from us consulat to french minister of war about the death of Burr Porter , killed in action in France in a cavalry charge against prussian infantry .

Thank you very much , Fred .
[

[Trailrider]

The rifle is probably still a .56-56. The best way to tell, of course, is to "slug" the barrel by driving a soft lead bullet down it using a wooden dowel and a hammer. I don't know about Spencer rifles, but carbines in .56-56 had tapered rifling that ran around .545" (13.8mm) at the breech (just ahead of the chamber) and about .535" (13.59mm)  at the muzzle. Would such guns accept .56-50 ammunition? Certainly! How they would shoot would depend on whether the smaller bullet would be "bumped up" by the black powder explosion on the base of the bullet. Since the diameter of the bullet  At worst, accuracy might be adversely affected by using the smaller cartridge.

A wonderful find! Enjoy!

[Snakeeater]

Fred,

Have you changed out the old RF breech block for a new CF block or is the case-hardened breech block visible in your photos the original block? It would appear that your rifle is not a Civil War rifle but is one of the later post-war modified rifles noting it not only has the Stabler device modifications but also the sides of the receiver have been rounded off for single-loading, being another one of the features introduced with the Stabler device. Also, the nosecap appears to be the later "longer" version like is found on the Model 1867 rifles. Had it been one of the Model 1868 New Model rifles, it would more likely have been equipped with the Spencer cutoff rather than the Stabler device. As for the 6-groove rifling, considering all of the Model 1865 Spencer Carbine production maintained the 6-groove rifling even with the change to .56-.50 any rifle barrels produced among the late production would have been the same spec. As I understand, the only 3-groove rifling used was in the carbine contract with Burnside and the rebarreling effort conducted at Springfield Armory. As to how the rifle got to France, it could just as well been taken over years after the Franco-Prussian War as a great number of the arms sent over were destroyed at the close of the war by the Prussians, and this rifle appears to be in very nice condition. Hardly seems likely it was one just thrown into a heap at the close of the war, eh?