Weight vs Volumn

[paledun]

Now that I am absolutely convinced that the dark arts are far more fun that anything called "smokeless," I need to increase my understanding of the various powder makers.  I have been using only Goex in all my shotshell loads with a standard 4.3 CC, 65 gr  2F and 1 ounce of shot.  More than enough smoke and boom to warm my heart and chase the FD's.  As my stock of Goex was running low, I purchased some unopened Elephant 2F to fill the need until I ordered a new stock of Goex.  Thought I would load a box to try the Elephant (been told it burns dirty) and started with 4.3 CC which weighed, not 65 gr, but almost 73.  My reading says volumn first and to discount this increase in weight.  Obviously, the Elephant is more dense that the Goex but the volumn is still the measure to use.  Am I correct or mis-informed?  Thanks for the advice.  Paledun

[Noz]

You are correct. Go with the volume unless you are attempting long range precision shooting.

The argument of grains weight versus grains volume breaks down immediately when you realize there is no such thing as a volumetric grain.

The fact that your powder measure has "60" grains on it means that someone in the past weighed out 60 grs (by weight) and put it in a brass tube then marked the tube at the top of the powder and henceforth that volume has been called 60 grains.

to get even scarier, gather an assemblage of "grain measures" and see how far they vary.

I have 5 different brass measures and the amount thrown from each set at 60 grains will vary over 5 grains.

[Blair]

I have made up a number of powder scoops, based off old cartridge cases over the years.
These are indeed based on a measure of valium.
However, what allows me to know just how much powder is contained within that valium those trimmed case hold, is to weigh the powder on a scale that states weight in grains.
If I change the powder type I am using... This maybe a powder manufactures grain size variation. fg, ffg, or fffg may cause the weight to change slightly within the same valium of measure. I always cross weigh a new powder on a grain weight scale so I know if there is a change in grain weight of the various powders I am using
It is a safe thing to do and/or know!
  Blair

[rickk]

Time to pull up a chair and watch this thread   ... 

[cpt dan blodgett]

One of lifes simple truths, if you use a powder measure and do not trickle powder to hit a specific weight all charges are by volume.  May well be the volume of a specific weight.  But a volume non the less.

[Forty Rod]

Being involved with black powder since 1973 I can say with some certainty that if you're shooting .44 - .45 caliber or larger and you're within a couple of grains of your intended measurement by volume you won't likely see a bit of difference.

My .50 Great Plains rifle is most accurate at about /70 grains of FFFg.  My carved antler measure throws 70 grains scant, but I can squash it with my thumb and get 72 grains.  I can't see enough difference to measure in normal sport shooting.  My reloader feller says he fills the case with powder and squashes it down with the bullet and I get pretty much the same result.  I don't even know what kind of powder he's using and it could contain several granulations and a measure of floor sweepings for all I know.

Of course if you're into extreme accuracy you may want to measure and weigh each grain and stack them neatly down the barrel, and that's your right and privilege.  Just don't think that anyone else has to be that anal. 

[Blair]

Forty Rod,

And how did you know your carved antler measure through 70 grains? Or that you could get 72 grains in it after you thumbed it? If you didn't weigh it with a grain weight equvilant to be that accurate in your knowledge?
(edited by mod for reference to forbidden subject)

[Forty Rod]

I used a sliding adjustable volume measure that I've had for almost 40 years and it works just dandy.  

I set it for 70 grains and as I went along I filled the one I was making and poured it into the adjustable one, checked it, and emptied it back into the flask...until it came to 70 grains.  

I then squashed it down with my thumb and added a bit more a couple of times and poured it into the brass measure set at 80 grains.  Then I slid the plunger up to where the powder was level, at 72 grains.

Ain't that clever?

I'm told the old timers, the really old timers, put a ball in their cupped hand and covered it with powder, picked the ball out and poured the powder down the bore.  Not as accurate as my way, which is not as accurate as yours, but it seems to have worked well enough to run the British out of the colonies.

I tried it a few times and the difference over 10 shots was negligible.

BP is very forgiving unless it gets damp.

[Coffinmaker]

Loading BP and Subs in cartridges, I don't pay any attention to a specific weight, nor volume.  I just drop in enough powder to get some compression and call it done.

Some years back, (I was shooting bench rest) Speer and several of the powder manufacturers tested loads and found no measurable difference in group size when there was as much as 1/2 grain variation in powder charge.  I tossed my trickler.  A current shooting friend of mine shoots long range BP and competition BPCR.  He can't find a measure able difference in group when the charge varies by as much as 5 grains.  I think many of us get wrapped around the "precision" axel needlessly.

Coffinmaker

[Ranch 13]

Now that I am absolutely convinced that the dark arts are far more fun that anything called "smokeless," I need to increase my understanding of the various powder makers.  I have been using only Goex in all my shotshell loads with a standard 4.3 CC, 65 gr  2F and 1 ounce of shot.  More than enough smoke and boom to warm my heart and chase the FD's.  As my stock of Goex was running low, I purchased some unopened Elephant 2F to fill the need until I ordered a new stock of Goex.  Thought I would load a box to try the Elephant (been told it burns dirty) and started with 4.3 CC which weighed, not 65 gr, but almost 73.  My reading says volumn first and to discount this increase in weight.  Obviously, the Elephant is more dense that the Goex but the volumn is still the measure to use.  Am I correct or mis-informed?  Thanks for the advice.  Paledun

Yes you can go with the same volume when changing brands. But you may run into problems due to the velocity changes that will open the patterns in your shotgun.
It takes when working with a single powder it takes about 3 grs, to change up the speeds over the chronograph screens. That doesn't amount to much on target when shooting pistol and wcf type rounds, and especially at CAS type distances and target sizes. It will make a difference when you start getting past 200 yds with the full blown rifle rounds.
In the 1870's Remington, Winchester and Sharps all stressed in their catalogs the importance of carefully weighing powder charges to get the best accuracy.
Recent tests with the Olde Eynsford powder in a 45-70 shows that 70 grs of 1.5 by volume and 70 grs by weight made a difference of around 40 fps, and the 70 grs by weight required more compression and the sd's got much lower. But that actual difference in powder charge was 5grs.
The 2f only had a  difference of 2 grs and the sd difference was around 10 fps.
A few years back I did a chronograph test with volume measure (ie my Lyman 55 was set for a 70 gr by weight charge of one powder) and the different powder F sizes by the same brand varied as much as 100 fps.
If your Elephant powder is of the early production it's not bad stuff, but if it's later production, that is some nasty crap, you will need plenty of cleaning patches after the shooting session is over.

[Cuts Crooked]

Locking this BEFORE it gets silly.