Loading for the TD Springfield

[wyldwylliam]

Gentlemen:

I've just finished a careful, cover-to-cover read of the J.S. and Pat Wolf book on loading arsenal-equvalent loads for this very fine rifle.

However, just about everything in the book is opposite to what I've previously read or thought I knew about loading BP cartridges.

I'm not saying I don't believe the late Mr. Wolf's conclusions, he backs up his claims by seemingly excellent scholarship and extensive shooting experience.

But, I would like to solicit the opinions of other shooters who load black powder cartridges for their Springfield TD rifles as to actual results had by following the directions outlined in the book.

Are the loads accurate? Do the appropriate loads regulate to the sights as claimed?

I'd just like to have a bit more info before I go to the effort and expense of lining up the proper components and tools.

Thank you for your kind attention.

[pony express]

Having never read the book, I can't comment on their loads. I use BP for my CAS style shooting, with Lee flat base 405gr bullet, cast from scrap/wheel weights, with 55gr 2F Goex and a 3/8 wad from Circle Fly. I haven't done any serious range testing, just CAS steel. It does shoot somewhat high, at CAS range I just aim at 6 oclock on the target. In the past I have used some 500gr bullets that shot closer to point of aim.

[Drydock]

I load my Trapdoor cartridges according to Wolfs book, and they do indeed conform to the sight regulations.  A few years back at one of our musters, we had ringers out at 200, 300, and 400 yards.  Using a TD Carbine and Wolfs 45-55-405 loads, I set the sights at 2,3,4 respectivly, and hit each target with successive shots.  This last Muster I won the long range event using the .45-70-500 loadings in an M1884 infantry rifle.

THe Springield 3 groove barrel is just a different animal.  Remember too, these are not meant to be Precision long range cartridges, but Milspec loadings, designed to shoot to the ranges indicated in Milspec weapons with Milspec sights, not fitted to any particular weapon.

[Pitspitr]

I load my Trapdoor cartridges according to Wolfs book, and they do indeed conform to the sight regulations.

+1 Except that I didn't shoot long range worth a darned last year.

[wyldwylliam]

Thanks kindly Gents. Looks like I'll run down the specific tools, etc., and find out what the old girl can do. Wolf says that when a shooter learns the rifle well and loads careful ammunition, moa groups are possible notwithstanding the more normal 2 to 4 moa. I'll put as much careful time and energy into this project as I know how because I need that 2 moa to be happy with a rifle.

And, while I'm at it, can any of you fellows direct me to figures for bullet drift for the 405gr rifle load? In one of my tomes I have an original chart on what movement of the m1879 sight will get you in terms of inches per hatch mark, but I'm not sure if it is readable as a direct correlation of the precise amount of drift. Easy to see why the Buffington was a hit.  Sorry, that pun was not intentiional.

[Ranch 13]

Do yourself a  huge favor and disrequard the part they go on about drilling out the flash holes, no point in wrecking cases, and skip the magnum rifle primers.
Leave your cases as is and use large pistol primers.

[Pitspitr]

In my opinion a number 41 hole isn't big enough to wreck a case, but I'm not convinced that it's necessary for good accuracy either. The thing I found when I drilled mine out is that it made the cases more consistent. One case I'd run through and it barely touched the edges of the flash hole. The next one would take out a lot of metal.

[Ranch 13]

Pretty much wrecks them if you ever want to use them for smokeless..
What they were trying to accomplish was to equal the amount of fire getting to the powder as was allowed by the multiple flashholes of the berdan primer. Where they really went amuck on that was when they decided to use magnum primers. The old blackpowder primers were much weaker than the primers we have today. So weak that Winchester warned not to use the "blackpowder" primers with smokeless powders as they may not set it off and if they did it would be irrattic. That is actually where duplexing got it's start, only they duplexed black under the smokeless so the primer would set off the blackpowder and that was enough spark to light up the smokeless.
Roberts also explains in his Schuetzen rifle book about sieving powder,,,, it wasn't blackpowder they sieved...

[Pitspitr]

Pretty much wrecks them if you ever want to use them for smokeless..

Yeah, your right about that. I wasn't looking at it from that angle. I keep my BP cases separate from my smokeless cases.

[Ranch 13]

Try some large pistol primers in some unmodified cases, you might like that a bunch.

[Drydock]

This is an oversimplification.  The first outfit to use the .096 flash hole was not Wolfe, but Frankford Arsenal around 1880.  It was to duplicate the cross sectional area of Benet Primimg, not Berdan.  The problem with the primers was not power, but duration.  Wolf was aware of all of this, and spelled it out in detail. 

Having said that, it must be said that we now operate under different conditions than Wolf did in the 90s.  The Popularity of Swiss powder has brought a new dymanic into these loadings.  Much as with Smokeless, different Black Powders react in different ways.  Swiss seems to reward light compression, and lighter powered primers.  Wano based powders seem to like standard primers, while standard Goex rewards heavier compression and more powerful primers.  Heavily compressed loadings like the M1873 rifle load like the larger flashhole.  IF you use a smaller powder grain, and back off the load by 5 grains, you may get equal results with the modern .081".

Wolf wanted to recreate the Milspec loadings of the M1873/1884 rifle and carbine loads.  He did.  If you load as he did, you will get the results he got.  Can you tailor your loadings to specific rifles and powders to achieve better accuracy in your particular weapon?  Probably.

Wolf simply provides an historical, technological starting point unique to the American Allin breech rifles.  How the US Army loaded these cartridges, how they used the sights provided, and how they expected the weapons to perform. 

[wyldwylliam]

Well, for myself, I don't have to worry about wrecking cases for smokeless as I haven't loaded with it in twenty years, think I'll experiment though and see what works best out of my own rifle.

As to primers, I'm sorta persuaded to try the magnum rifle primers because besides Wolf and others, both Garbe and Venturino recommend them. I've been using regular primers for the last while, both pistol and rifle, but again will try the magnums to see if they give me tighter groups. When Wolf says that they are, together with the enlarged flash hole, needed to bust up the pellet of powder which has been crushed a half inch in loading, it sure sounds to me like good sense. But again, only time and experience will tell for sure.

Drydock posted while I was writing the above, so I need to add that I use Goex powder because it is the only one available to me. I also concur completely with his opening paragraph. Iirc, the word is "brissance."

Lastly, if I can get these "Wolf" loadings to perform well in my rifle I will be delighted as I am quite interested in doing old things in the old ways. Using modern loads in old guns completely defeats the purpose to my way of thinking.

[Ranch 13]

Well do what you think is right, but I can tell you that from 1000's of rounds down range in several different rifles , when you want accuracy you'll go to either the large pistol primer or go to using a primer wad.
Take a look at the equimpment/load lists from the various matches and you won't see much for magnum primers, you won't find anybody drilling flashholes.
I'll also take a guess you'll have to go back a loonnngg ways to find an article penned by either Mike or Steve in which they recommend magnum primers.
The harder fouling left by magnum primers with what ever brand of powder you choose, is something to steer clear away from with a trapdoor.
Plus the way this Old Ensyford powder is acting trapdoor shooters may want to take a reall hard look at it. 70 grs of the 1.5 by volume behind a 500 gr bullet is dropping the velocity spot onto the claimed original government ballistics and it's looking like the stuff is capable of supreme accuracy..May not replace KIK as the premium powder of today but it'll come dang close.

[StrawHat]

Spence Wolf did a good job of replicating the Arsenal loading of the 45-70 cartridges.  Today, we can learn from his example and perfect those loadings.  I used to drill the cases and use magnum primers.  Ran out of magnum primers one day so loaded the large rifle primers.  Groups were a little smaller.  Tried the same in undrilled cases, groups did not increase.  I have since decided to keep things as simple as I can so I can enjoy shooting more.  I can use undrilled cases and large rifle primers and have a good time.  You need to determine what works for you but a lot more folks use large rifle or large pistol than use Magnum.  Best of luck to you.

MC, Ensyford sounds like a winner for the trapdoor.  I wonder when it will be available to the general public?

[Ranch 13]

MC, Ensyford sounds like a winner for the trapdoor.  I wonder when it will be available to the general public?

Eynsford is available to the general public, Powder Inc has it, and that's where all of us that have gotten any and tested it so far have got it is from purchasing from Jerry.

Bye the bye for those interested in showing their trapdoor skills you may want to make plans the first weekend in May
http://www.alliancerifleclub.com/Pages/midwestflier.html
The boys shooting trapdoor there would probably be much grateful for some fresh meat.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Things sure are getting confusing.  Figured out the FF and FFF thing now both Old Eynesford and Kik do 1f 1.5F FF and FFF.
What to shoot from my rolling block 26 in or sharps 32 inch 45-70s just became complicated due to additional choices.   Perhaps 2 pounds each of 1.5 and 2F Eynesford and Kik with 2 lbs of FF Shuetzen is the way to start.  Followed up with a order of what the rifles like best. 

Past testing indicates the Bullets I get from Montana Bullet Works carry enough lube when shot from the short barreled rolling block, but all bullets I have used need additional lube from the longer barreled sharps.  Shooting either FF or FFF shuetzen without a lube cookie chamber fouling requires wiping between rounds in the sharps.  Not so much of a problem in the rolling block but still there.

[Ranch 13]

Dan it does not need to be confusing, go with either the KIK 2f, or if you want to run the same powder for the short cartridges as the long ones then I'ld take a real serious look at this Old Eynsford in 2f.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Thanks Ranch.  Will probably just go with Kik 2F on a 10 lb order for now.  Have a couple of lbs FFF shuetzen for pistols.  Truth be told for CAS shooting anything that booms will work in the pistols and pistol cal rifle if bullets have enough lube or a wet swab is run down the bore occasionally.

[Ranch 13]

Just for grins and giggles, when you call Jerry about getting the KIK, you might ask him about just 8 lbs of the KIK 2f a can of the Olde E 1.5 and one of the 2, to fill up a ten pound box.

[cpt dan blodgett]

sounds like a good idea.  Can never hurt.  Given I need a lube cookie in the sharps at least will probably find 65 grains the cookie and wads about all that fit unless use wax paper and or coke carton for wad vs .062 fiber