What NON CAS .45LC and .357mag ammo can be shot in Colt SAA and clones?

[Michael Bear]

This question doesn't apply to Ruger Vaquero or Blackhawk, I know answers to that.
I'm asking about Uberti, Pietta, Colt, USFA, etc 1873 single action revolver.

I want to shoot something else than cowboy loads and I'm not sure they are a good choice for self defense although they look like they could hurt someone badly.
I'm looking for a safe round to buy, not to handload, that could take care of 2 and 4 legged critters, of course with certain limitations. But a black bear maybe? Maybe going deer hunting? These two require about the same force to kill with proper shot placement of course.
I'm asking for both calibers since I have both.
What would be the maximum I could shot without damaging the revolver in .357mag, 158gr? 180gr?
Same thing for 45LC. I'm assuming Cor Bon stuff are only good in Rugers and few others.
Cowboys back then didn't use wimpy loads for sure, so what is the good off the shelf/internet ammo to get?
Thank You

[Pettifogger]

Any SAAMI spec ammo.

[Michael Bear]

Well, yes. That's kind of obvious, but I always read about light cowboy loads or Ruger only, and I'm looking for something in between. I don't imagine anyone would shoot cor bon out of his Colt. The question is, is there ammo like this still made?

[yeti76620]

well hell yes IF you can find it!

I've personal protection ammo in 380 acp 38 spl, 357 mag, 45 acp, 45 colt, 454 casul all in ball ammo too... 

[Michael Bear]

Ok, so what bullet weights are we looking at in 45Colt and 357mag?
Any particular company?

[Shotgun Franklin]

I often carry a SAA in .45 Colt. I either use WW Silvertips or use my SASS load. I normally shoot a 200 gr RNFP lead bullet at 940 fps. I use Red Dot powder. I've not shot a person with one of these but have killed WT Deer.

[Michael Bear]

Red dot- so that's reloading you talking about?

[Bugscuffle]

It's really simple. If a particular gun will not withstand SAAMI specification ammunition, it must be marked as such or it cannot be sold in the U.S., i.e. "black powder only". Most guns are built and tested to a 50% overload. How that overload is calculated is more or less up to the manufacturer, so beware. Remember that it only has to pass this test with one gun, one time. All ammunition sold in the U.S. meets SAAMI specs. If it exceeds those specs it is marked as such, i.e. +P. If there is any doubt, ask the manufacturer. They may tell you, but that would be an unusual occurrence. Whether it is a gun manufacturer or an ammo manufacturer they usually just tell you "It meets SAAMI specifications" if they say anything at all.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Yep, my loads. Right now you'll have a tough time finding factory ammo. I've been reloading for about 35 years. I couldn't afford to do my Cowboy Shooting otherwise.

[Bugscuffle]

Yes sir there Shotgun. I reload 45L.C. for about $9.50 for a box of 50. I reuse my brass and I fugure that on the average I loose about 10 - 12% to either "I can't find them" to "cracked or too bent or bulged to be safe". I prefer tight group powder, Missouri bullets and whatever name brand primers are on sale, not that I've seen that in a long while.

[petrinal]

in fact, in most european bank proof houses, the gun is tested at 30 % overcharge, and only once each chamber.

that is the limit, and it is no good go beyond.

yes, some manufacturers in the USA test their guns to overstand even 50%.

[Buckingham]

Petrinal,
Which manufacturers test to 50% over service pressure? Is there any documentary evidence of this happening ? The normal proof pressure in Europe is 30% over service pressure, tested on all pressure bearing components, so if you change any one of these, barrel, cylinder, etc, the gun must be re proofed, this also applies to these components having been worked upon, which will require re proof.

[Virginia Gentleman]

As these folks said any SAAMI spec ammo is fine and +P ammo is not a good idea as they will put undue stress on a 19th century design and may cause it to fail.

[CPL Jayhawker Jake]

I've fired Winchester PDX-1 and Barnes HPs .45 Colt loads though my Cimarron/Pietta SAA without any apparent problems.  Both were standard loadings, and both expanded beautifully when I did a water expansion text.

[Virginia Gentleman]

I've fired Winchester PDX-1 and Barnes HPs .45 Colt loads though my Cimarron/Pietta SAA without any apparent problems.  Both were standard loadings, and both expanded beautifully when I did a water expansion text.

19th century designs with modern ammo will get the job done just as well as some plastic space gun.   

[sail32]

 In reference to Italian made firearms they are proofed to C.I.P. standards and are working with SAAMI to standardize.
Here is the .45 Colt, .44-40 and .38-40 CIP information and links to the CIP website.

Commission International Permanente ( CIP )

http://www.cip-bobp.org/

Cartridge page pages

.45 Colt = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=4&cartridge_type_id=4

.44-40 = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=6&cartridge_type_id=2

.38-40 = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=5&cartridge_type_id=2


From the pages;

.45 Colt =    M = 12.5   PT max = 1100      PK = 1265   PE = 1430
.44-40   =   M = 17.5   PT max = 1100       PK = 1265   PE = 1375     EE =  890 
.38-40  =   M = 17.5   PT max = 1150     PK = 1323   PE = 1440     EE =1945   

It looks like a typing error for the .45 Colt and it should be;  PE = 1375

CUP psi

.45 Colt =    PT Max = 15954 psi    PK =  18347 psi   PE =  19942 psi
.44-40   =     PT Max = 15954 psi    PK =  18347 psi   PE =  19942 psi
.38-40   =     PT Max = 16679 psi    PK =  19188 psi   PE =  20885 psi


PT max     = maximum average pressure (bar)
PK         = 1,15 Pmax = maximum statistical individual pressure (bar)
PE      = 1,25 Pmax = mean proof pressure (bar)
M      = location of the pressure take (mm)
EE       = proof kinetic energy (Joule)
Notice: For conformal or tangential transducers the location (M) is that defined by the manufacturer.

One bar = 14.503778 psi
One gram = 15.4323584 grains

C.I.P Cartridge dimensions

.45 Colt = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page78.pdf

.44-40  = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/tabiical-en-page108.pdf

.38-40  = http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-ii/tabiical-en-page98.pdf


From " Modern Reloading 2nd Edition ", by Richard lee, 2003, 2012 reprint.

Useful case capacity in cc

.45 Colt    = 1.93 cc
.44-40      = 2.07 cc
.38-40      = 2.13 cc




Hope this helps.

[jimbobborg]

For 2-legged vermin, the .357 Magnum with 125gr JHP was the gold standard for SD rounds.  That round is not appropriate for anything over 200 lbs on 4 legs.  One of the problems you'll find with running heavier loads and revolvers is the sights are not regulated for the heavier bullets.  For instance, my 4" Ruger GP100 hits dead on with 125gr ammo, Magnum or +P or standard.  With even mild 158gr .38 Special, it hits 6" high at 10 yards and doesn't really drop until past 50 yards.  If your sights are regulated to the heavier bullet weights, great.  If not, stick with the lighter loads.

As for .45 Colt, you're stuck with SAMMI spec ammunition.  No +P for your SAAs.  If you had a Winchester 92 or 94 in .45 Colt, you can run the hotter ammunition in them. 

[Virginia Gentleman]

Sticking with the SAAMI spec loads will keep you out of trouble for sure.  Shooting jacketed bullets in them is OK once and a while, but their rifling is better suited for lead bullets.   Your mileage may vary. 

[Michael Bear]

I some some 230gr LRN .45LC but it seems that many people shoot either reloads or cowboy loads with 250 and 255gr bullets.
Thank you

[Mean Bob Mean]

else than cowboy loads and I'm not sure they are a good choice for self defense although they look like they could hurt someone badly.

I have two loads for .45s:  one is a 200 grain Speer Bonded Hollowpoint loaded to standard .45 pressures and one is a 250 soft lead "cowboy" load that pulls about 800 FPS+ out of a 7.5 inch barrel. I have zero concern using either as a self defense load.  Both are loaded by Georgia Arms.  I am now reloading my own for SASS but I will always load factory in the .45 for SD, or at least until my confidence in my reloads increases.  I am looking for 200 grain HPs for my .44s.  I am going to load those with Blackhorn which advertises about 900 FPS with that weight.  

Cheers