Spencer markings 1st Cavalry

[Herbert]

From D.McAulay book.Carbines in US Calvalry December 1870 ,Sharps 4898,Spencer 4822.A year and a half later the number of Sharps had increased to 7100 and the quanity of Spencers had droped to 2200.Though there is a chart below this that shows how quickly the Sharps took over in 1871-72,it seems the 4th,6th and 9th kept there Spencers the longest, into 1872 befor also having them replaced with Sharps carbines

[FrontierWest]

What does it say for the 2nd cavalry?  Particular cos' F,G,H,& L?

Thanks,

john

[Trailrider]

"Now in 1876, the same Companies still had in their arms room Sharps though for the unit they carried the m1873 Springfield.  The Indians and others while preforming duty as Scouts early on, were issued the Sharps, but by 1877, both the Sharps and Springfields saw issue to others other than the military.  I have the records by serial number too." - FrontierWest

I know from the Ordnance records that Co. G, 3rd Cavalry brought five (5) Sharps Carbines with them when they transferred from Ft. D.A. Russell to Sidney Barracks, Nebraska, in 1874. They still had them in 1876, and it is believed that one was issued to a 17-year old civilian teamster, employed by the AAQM at the post. He may have purchased it outright when he left employment in October 1876, or may have "lost" the carbine and had the cost deducted from his pay. I have been unable to discover paperwork to verify this, but there are other examples of similar "losses" with pay deducted. Verification is 99% certain, however.

Now if any serial numbers are extant concerning Sharps carbines, I'd be interested in researching them.

[Herbert]

What does it say for the 2nd cavalry?  Particular cos' F,G,H,& L?

Thanks,

john

Does not mention numbers by company but for 2nd US Cavalry june 30 ,1867 ,Spencer .52 cal 189,Spencer .50 cal 853.By the next report in December 1870the Spencers had been replaced by 957 M1868 Sharps carbines ,with no other type of carbine being in th 2nd.It seems that the 2nd cavalry was one the first to recive the alter sharps carbines with 100 being issued to Fort Sedgwick and given to captain John Mix,2nd cavalry,this would have been after Januarury 1869 when the order was given to send the alterd Sharps carbines from Leavenworth Arsenal for issue to troops at Fort McPeeson,500 Sharps carbines &100,800 cartridges,Dort D.A.Russell 600 Sharps carbines &120,000 cartridges,Fort Sedgwick 100 Sharps carbines & 20,000 cartridges

[FrontierWest]

At Herbert, that is cool and goes exactly whith what i know and have found.  The 4 companies I mentioned were sent to Montana.. and stayed 19 years!  They arrived @ thier duty station Fort Ellis on July 2nd, 1869 with Sharps carbines.  And I think the first major battle with them was the Baker Massacre, Jan 23rd, 1870.  how does that grab you! 

now... "Now if any serial numbers are extant concerning Sharps carbines, I'd be interested in researching them."

Send me your email and I'll share some original source documents that list the guns (sharps) by serial number that were issued the Crow scouts during the Custer and Nez perce campaigns!  So far... never published!

john

[twogunpete]

I found a Spencer carbine on Gunbroker.com which makes me think there are more of these out there.  The M1865 offered for bid is numbered 12628 while the one I own is 12008 and has similar markings on the top of butt stock forward of the butt plate. Mine is stamped "L Troop" and "1st Cavalry". 12628 appears to be stamped much the same and if not a fake (mine or this one) I'd be tempted to bid but......  as usual available funds seem to fall short of my desires. That being said I hope one of you members picks this one up and we can compare notes.
Auction item number is 540051863 - about 4 days left on the auction Gunbroker.com. 
BTW with 12008,  I've switched to center fire, cast some bullets, loaded with 35 grains of Old E, and it doesn't do to bad!

Twogunpete

[Ndmbalmr]

Hello form the new guy! I guess its dumb luck, but, I was just researching my New Gun Broker Purchase and ran across this post!
It should be here later this week and I'd love to compare notes!  This is my first Spencer and I can't wait to get it up and running, I'm going to need some help though, and by looking at this sight, it appears that I've sound the right place!
I have ordered a Breech Block from S&S am I on the right track here? any other suggestions?

[Blair]

Ndmbalmar,

It is my belief that you have found the place to begin your quest for knowledge of Spencer Firearms.
Welcome!
My best,
Blair

[twogunpete]

Ndmbalmr- checking to see if you received your Spencer?  Did you pick up the one referenced previously on Gunbroker with the Troop and 1st Cavalry markings or a different one? This site loves pics of anything unusual or unique. 

[DJ]

Here is some pure speculation and perhaps fuel for discussion.  I have a glib recollection of stories my uncle told of post-war service in Korea in the early 50's, when weapons were being recovered from around the countryside.  Some were retained in the local arms room as personal property of individual service members and had to be clearly marked as non-military--my uncle had an air-cooled Browning on a tripod and the whole thing was painted red; whenever locals found turned in belted .30-06 ammo, he would check it out of the arms room and set it up on a hill overlooking the coast for an afternoon of blasting.  Other weapons were retained as property of the unit, but were not on the books as government issued.  I believe he said they were stenciled with some kind of unit property marking that indicated their quasi-official status. 

  I wonder if these Spencers fit in a category similar to that--perhaps obsolete by the time they were marked, but still retained by the unit as unit property for some purpose.  That might account for the scarcity of the 1st Cavalry markings and the apparent absence of similar markings from the other cavalry units.

I understand that arms room practices in the 50's were likely different from 19th century practices, but maybe they weren't all that different.

[Ndmbalmr]

I did indeed receive it! I am very sorry I haven't as of yet posted any pics. I will try to get that accomplished this week! 

[twogunpete]

Over the past couple of years I've seen two more examples of same model 1865 Spencer carbine with the same markings stamped in the same location "L Troop 1st Cavalry". One was advertised on Gunbroker.com S/N 12628 and I believe purchased by Ndmbalmr as referenced earlier in this post.   The other was S/N 11483 and showed up on Heritage Auctions Militaria Auction Catelog #6023.  Both appeared consistent with what I have (S/N 12008)  and seemed period correct.  FYI and Thanks.

[Ndmbalmr]

Okay everyone! We finally are moving into our new home and I'll be set up shortly to be able to take pictures of my Spencer and its markings...I've been in Temp housing for about ten months and as such, haven't had access to my gun bench/tools etc...I did do a conversion to shoot center fire ammo, but, there is no way a modern 56-50 case is going in there! I did pick up some vintage rounds, just to check if they will chamber...any suggestions?

[Trailrider]

Okay everyone! We finally are moving into our new home and I'll be set up shortly to be able to take pictures of my Spencer and its markings...I've been in Temp housing for about ten months and as such, haven't had access to my gun bench/tools etc...I did do a conversion to shoot center fire ammo, but, there is no way a modern 56-50 case is going in there! I did pick up some vintage rounds, just to check if they will chamber...any suggestions?

How do the "modern .56-50" cases NOT chamber? They may need to have the rims turned down or thinned (from the front side), which can be done in several ways, using a drill press and a file, or, if you have access to a lathe.  I'd suggest making a chamber casting using CERROSAFE low-melting point bismuth alloy...(NEVER CAST LEAD!).  Dixie Gun Works and Brownells have it. Then compare the casting to the brass.  It may be something simple.

As to the markings, it is possible these were used AFTER the CW, as the ten cavalry units on the frontier were issued Spencers, generally, but not always M1865's (.56-50) or M1860's (.56-56). Don't have the time right this minute, but I'll check my records and let you know.

[Trailrider]

According to my copies of the "Ordnance and Ordnance Stores In the Hands of the Cavalry Regiments, for the Period Ending June 31, 1871," Company L, 1st Cavalry (the term "Troop" was used unofficially until the 1880's when it was adopted as the official terminology), has 79 Spencer Carbines, cal. .50 (.56-50 in modern terminology), and 4 Sharps Carbines, cal. .50 (.50-70), stationed at Camp Thomas, A.T. (Arizona Territory).  They also had 54 Colt's Revolving Pistols, Old and New Models (whatever that meant), cal. .44 and 1 Remington Revolver, cal. .44.  Other companies of the 1st Cav had Spencers and/or Sharps Carbines, as the latter were being phased in. Eventually, the Spencers would be completely replaced by the Sharps Carbines, until those were subsequently replaced by the M1873 Trapdoor Carbines, sometime in 1874.

Looks like the 1st Cav. stamped their Spencers with the unit markings.  The 3rd Cav  and 10th Cav. also did that; other regiments did not. Looks like you have a winner!  If you want to pursue it, you might try to look up the history of Co. L, 1 Cavalry, during that time period and see what, if any fights they might have gotten into.

Nice find! 

[JNobleDaggett]

I found this post while researching a Model 1865 Spencer carbine I had purchased, Serial 12016 on the receiver (I have not taken off the fore-stock to check the serial on the bottom of the barrel), and the marking is just as described in this thread, and on the same place.  Note that this stamp would be easily visible even when the carbine would be sheathed.
The marking is made with two separate stamps, and the size of the letters and size of the stamp is what I've heard called a "laundry stamp."  I've seen such stamps with an individual's name stamped on metal and wood of civil war longarms.  I think this size and type of stamp must have been a standard stamp, widely available, just like the  modern ink stamp I have with my name and address which I use to stamp a return address on envelopes I mail.
J. Noble Daggett

[Jack Wagon]

Out in California, it seems Spencers were still being issued in the 1872-73 Modoc Indian War. Looks like they got a bad lot of cartridges and were not too happy with their Spencers. Besides Springfields, Sharps and Spencers it looks like they had a few Remington rolling block pistols.  Jw
In addition to the mountain howitzers and Coehorn mortars, a few notes may be found concerning the small arms used by the combatants. The standard weapon for infantrymen at the time of the Modoc War was the 50-cal. Springfield musket, M1868 or M1870. There are several references to Springfields in the records and it is assumed that the infantry companies and most of the artillery batteries were armed with this weapon.

Most of the cavalry troops, and probably Battery B, 4th Artillery (which was mounted), carried 50-cal. Sharp's carbines, which fired center-primed ammunition. Troop F was the exception; it carried Spencer carbines, which used rim-primed ammunition. Hardin (not in Troop F) wrote that the Spencers were unsatisfactory: "Several men of that troop told me that the failure of so many cartridges almost caused panic." He said that the Sharp's carbines rarely misfired.

Ammunition forwarded to the lava beds from the Vancouver Arsenal included:

    40,000 rounds, center-primed, metallic cartridges, cal. 50.

    5,000 rounds for Spencer carbine.

    4,000 rounds for Remington revolvers, muzzle loading, 44-cal.

    2,000 rounds for Remington and Colt revolving pistols.

    (These last two are probably for the same weapon.)

In August 1872, several troops of the 1st Cavalry were designated to receive an experimental Remington single-barreled pistol. Among the troops were four that served in the Modoc war?F, G, H, and K. If this weapon was issued as scheduled, it is quite possible some of the enlisted men of these four troops carried them into action?officers purchased their own weapons.

[Jack Wagon]

There is an M1865 with the same Troop marking up for auction at Antiqueguns.com until August 5th.   Jw

[Dave Fox]

The stamping of firearms, sabers, and leather accoutrement with unit markings obviously did occur but seems unusual and contrary to reason given these items did not belong to the unit or individual to whom they were issued and were subject to being reissued elsewhere, making permanent unit markings an embarrassment. Many European military firearms had metal discs let into the stocks upon which unit markings could be stamped, the discs being replaced or the markings polished out as met the needs of the service. Seems to me that, over the (too many) years of observation, the most common U.S. Army markings of Indian War vintage occur on accoutrement issued to Buffalo Soldier infantry and cavalry units. And that most firearms with unit markings, from the Civil War through the end of the century signify state or local units. As an aside, it is somewhat amusing to see firearms with initials crudely carved into the buttstocks advertised as evidence of the identity of the soldiers to which they were issued. More likely, the carving is that of the 14-year-old hunter to whom the arm was finally passed down years later before being retired entirely.

[twogunpete]

For those interested I came across another possible example of a "L Troop 1st Cavalry " marked firearm on the Civilwartalk forum.   This time it's a Sharps Carbine. From my calculation this is the 5th piece so marked and assuming they are legitimate would be a question... but interesting non-the-less. 
Here's the link to that forum:

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/the-tale-of-a-nm1863-sharps-carbine-ser-72351-converted-to-m1868.192519/#post-2503288

Thanks, Twogunpete