Fireforming 30-30 brass into 38-55

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy the fire,

I just found a box of 30-30 brass under my reloading bench in my lab.  I needed some more 38-55 brass but am all out of my old fire forming powder.  But, I found a one pound bottle of Clays in one of my cupboards and decided to give it a go.

I shoot only black powder in my 38-55 but black powder just doesn't do the job when it comes to fire forming.

To fire form the 30-30 brass I primed it with large pistol primers (Federal), dropped in 1cc of Clays and 1.6cc corn meal and plugged it up tight with DD PL-II black powder bullet lube.

Loaded them up and shot over the south lawn.  Loud bang, some recoil, beautifully formed brass, no residue left in the barrel.

Now I have a batch of nice 38-55 brass to load up with Swiss FFFg behind a Big Lube®LLC 38-55 bullet.  These are the same loads that have won wood and paper at long range matches for me in the past.  I should have enough to keep me happily reloading till the SASS matches start in April.  Life is good.

DD-MDA

[fourfingersofdeath]

Way to DD! I have three 30/30s and hundreds and hundreds of brass cartridges for them. I think I should get a 38/55 as I have dies, two moulds and a squillion gaschecks as well. Shame to see them all go to waste, haha!

[Ranch 13]

That'll do in a pinch, but aren't those brass going to be quite a bit short? 30-30 is already shorter than 38-55 and then when you blow them out to the larger diameter it'll shorten them some more.

[Dick Dastardly]

Yup Ranch,

They're shorter but my Winchester Legendary Frontiersman loves 'em.  They make great ammo and shoot very accurately.  They run real well from the magazine.  Fouling is practically non existent with the Big Lube®LLC bullets.  Gotta love 'em.

There's so much once fired 30-30 brass laying around that they are almost considered junk.  Sure beats the price of new 38-55 brass.

DD-MDA

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I do this too.  Sort the cases into lots by weight to ensure greater uniformity

[dusty texian]

Howdy there DD. I had a Legendary Frontiersman is 38/55 wcf back in the late 80s. Let my Uncle talk me outa it. Have regret it ever since. One of them OK ifn you ever get rid of it ,It comes back too me. Well that didnt happen. Was one of the few Commemerativ's that I realy like. Was thinkin about rebarreling one of my 30wcf 94s to 38/55 . And what may push me over the edge is the ability to use 30wcf brass. Thank's for postin ,and giving me  the idea for another project . .......Dusty

[Blair]

I never considered it, but it Might be a great source of cheap brass for the .38-50 Ballard?

[john boy]

I never considered it, but it Might be a great source of cheap brass for the .38-50 Ballard?

Blair your guessing that 38-50 Ballard cases can be re-formed from 30-30 Winchesters.
The conversion case is the 9.3x72R.  ID of the neck may be necessary

[Blair]

john boy,

Perhaps? But lets start with the basic unfire formed Cartridge case.
This is info is from "Cartridges of the World", by Barns.

The rim dia. of the 30-30 is .503
The rim dia. of the 38- 50 Ballard is .502
These two case rim dia. are very close and may work well. Other measurements, would of course need to be compared, to make sure.


The rim dia. of the 9.3x72R mm is .482.
This is just from a quick check on my part on the rim dia. It has nothing to do with the length of the cartridge cases.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Blair your guessing that 38-50 Ballard cases can be re-formed from 30-30 Winchesters.
The conversion case is the 9.3x72R.  ID of the neck may be necessary

The Ballard case is the parent of the 38-55 and the entire 30-30 series.  I do use the 9.3 x 72R case to cut down to 9.3 x 57R (aka .360 Express) as the 38-55 case is too narrow at the base and too short.

[Ranch 13]

Most of the leading and loss of accuracy problems folks have with the 38-55 is traced back to the short winchester cases, and I can't imagine those problems just disappearing when going with the even shorter 30-30 case.
Don't know exactly when Winchester made the switch to the shorter case in their production ammo, but I shot a few of the old cartridges from the red and yellow superx box I have and those fired cases came out at 2.1 inches.

[Blair]

Ranch 13,

Winchester came out with the 38-55 in their 1894 large frame lever Rifles. This was to compete with the very popular 38-50 Ballard cartridge used in the Ballard signal shots as well as in the Marlin Large frame lever Rifle of 1881.
It was Winchesters first introduction to the smokeless powder ammo in the new large frame Rifle. The 1892 was the first in the pistol/revolver.
While cartridge caliber designations such as 38-55, 30-40 Krag and the ever popular 30-30 maintain the black powder designation of the time period, they were always meant and intended to be Smokeless powder cartridges.

[Ranch 13]

Blair ,Winchester introduced the 38-55 and 32-40 (which they sole from Ballard) in the 94 because the 30 wcf( 30-30) wasn't ready yet.And the reason for the 94 model was to give something with more power than the 92 , yet keeping the lightweight and quick handling of the 92.
The 30wcf ( 30-30) and 25-35 followed the next year and were the first commercial sporting smokeless cartridges they introduced.
Incidentaly they did experiment with a 30 cal in the 86, but due to the larger case head of the 45 caliber cases that action is built around and the smokeless powder of the day, the 33 winchester was as small as they could successfully go.
They did not produce the 38-55 and 32-40 with nickel steel barrels except on special order until nearly the end of their pre depression production.
The 92 never was chambered in a pistol cartridge, the 32,38 and 44wcf and 25-20 were rifle cartridges from the get go, and only since they were dropped from Winchesters rifle lineup and only kept in production past World War ll by Colt in the modle p did the confusion of them being "pistol" cartridges begin by well meaning but ill informed folks..

My mentioning of the case length of the 38-55 cases as produced by Winchester nowdays is due to original length of the 38-55 is 2.13, but somewhere along the line since the post World War ll production, they shortened the case length to 2.08, but for the most part if folks do a chamber cast they'll find the chambers are still reamed for the original 2.13 case length. Hence the problems that do crop up occassionally with leading and accuracy.

[Blair]

Ranch 13,

You are, of course correct.
I was only trying to abbreviate a rather complex period of development.
44, 38, 32, and 25 WCF were all Rifle cartridges. They are, however, well suited for use in revolvers such a Colt. My reason for referring to them as a revolver "Length" cartridges and or short or long frame rifle receivers was to impart this information.

What is the difference between the 1881 and the 1888 Marlin lever rifles?
What is the difference  between the 1892 and the 1894 Winchester lever rifles?
Frame length to accommodate the different cartridge calibers.
I hope this helps to clarify what I was trying to impart to a thread about fire forming brass cases.

[Ranch 13]

Blair the question still remains When did Winchester ammunition division decide to start making the 38-55 cases the short length they use today? A lyman/ideal handbook from 1953  shows the proper case length of the 38-55 cartridge at 2.12 in.
And folks may be somewhat surprised to this day to find out the chambers on their rifles are for the 2.13 length, and that using the longer cases may be cause for great joy in the better preformance of those rifles so chambered.

And just to be clear there was no 25wcf, it was the 25-20 (not to be confused with the 25-20 single shot) and Colt nor anybody else ever chambered it in a revolver.

[Blair]

Ranch 13,

No, the original question remains... after fire forming 30-30 cases for use in a 38-55, what are the overall dimensions?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

My cases formed from 30-30 (Win Super X) have the fol dimensions;

case length 2.02 to 2.03
rim dia. .495
base dia. .415
mouth dia (over an .377 cast bullet) .390

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

My cases formed from 30-30 (Win Super X) have the fol dimensions;

case length 2.02 to 2.03
rim dia. .495
base dia. .415
mouth dia (over an .377 cast bullet) .395

[Ranch 13]

Interesting they didn't shrink up anymore than that. When you fireform 30-40 in a 405, they shrink a bit over .2

[Noz]

Along the same lines:
I wanted to have some snake loads for my family of 41 magnums. A 30-30 case fire formed in a 41 mag makes a great "Brass Shotshell Case". I then built a paper towel wad column and loaded with #9 shot. Capped the mouth of the case with a glued in milk carton wad.
It worked but was a real pain in the neck to do so it got thrown in the "Well it felt like a good idea at the time" pile.