Caveat of Elmer's glue

[Hickok]

Alot of people recommend using Elmer's white Glue for gluing paper catridges, and likewise many folks caution against its use. Can someone give some info pro or con about this subject? Does it react bad with blackpowder combustion to create some hateful fowling?

Just like to hear some first hand knowlege and experience.

[Tsalagidave]

Elmer's glue flash-burns into a residue that can be extremely difficult to clean out from the grooves of your rifling. I have heard some say that it will inevitably ruin your barrel. Stick to a salt that dissolves easily. This is why I emphatically urge you to use sodium silicate (aka. water glass). You can continue cleaning your gun with hot water and then a rub down with a slightly greased patch to avoid rusting.

-Dave

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

What kind of paper cartridges are you loading?  For 12 gauge muzzle-loading shotgun I have used "glue-stick" without any problems.  For cap 'n ball I used self glueing cigarette papers.

[Slowhand Bob]

The question that would seem to come next is, what glue is used on those cigarette papers?  I have heard a number of complaints through the years of water glass not holding well for shotgun loads, never considered paper cartridges as practical for my types of shooting. 

[rifle]

Dixie Gun Works sells combustable glue for paper cartridges and sells akit with the nitrated paper and a carboard form for sizing and shaping the papers to wrap the right way around a cone shaped wooden dowel. The papers have to be shaped the right way to wrap right. I have one of the kits I bought years ago and ended up shaping the wood dowel more cone-ish to better the tapered to go in the chambers.
I like to wrap the papers ,painstakingly cut  out , and while on the dowel glue a thin paper to cover the rear so the cap flash blows right thru the paper into the powder.
They take time to make but are cool to use out in the field or wherever shooting the historic guns. I put mine in boxes with a copy of an original label glued on them. The copy is cut out of sticky backed paper so gluing the labels is not too difficult.
I've used Elmers glue on the paper cartridges in the beginning and even now since I use my own nitrated paper and still have the wood dowel and all. Neve seen any negative aspects from the Elmers. Of course.......I don't shoot a lotof paper cartridges. They's only a novelty with me.
If I applied myself and developed a QUICK way to assemble the paper cartridges I'd use more of them. I've read that women making the cartridges backin the day for Colt could make thousands of them in a day. That's thousands of them per individual women assembly worker.
Anywhooooo........I get the paper staying some around the forcing cone in the breech end of the barrel and have to watch that there's no paper left in the chambers to block the flash from the next cap. I've used heavy saturation of the potassium nitrate on the papers too.
What I read here about using a slurry of "Holy Black" for the ignition of the paper kinda seems like it's worth trying. I'd be thunkin bout using the Black and a lil extra potassium nitrate to get a better flash to the paper. Then be careful not to set the woods on fire. 
Anywhoooo...fer the muzzleloader shotgun I like the good ole shot flask and the power flask or horn. Carrying paper shotgun loads would be a disaster out in the rain or wet snow or when everything gets torn to shreds busting thru the brush with the hounds. There's still a lot of the wild multiflora rose bushes proliferating around this area and that's where the deer and the rabbit like to hide out. I have a set of leather chaps styled after the ones "Quiggly" where's in that movie "Quiggly Down Under" and they look like antiques from the brush aging them fer me. They definity don't look new anymore. Want to age your new chaps fer CASS dressin up? Use them to walk around in thick fields of thorny rose bushes and black berry bushes. That'll do the trick....ifin you survive the ordeal.   It's all worth it when yer sittin down to "rabbit gravy"over fried taters with onions. 

[Hickok]

Just asked the question out of curiousity.  Not wanting to start a flame war on the subject, so I hope no one takes offense.

I am loading .36 and .44 revolver paper cartridges. Always used the Bugler cig papers for years and just used the adhesive that was on the cig paper. Now I got into nitrating the paper and the glue disolves in the solution. I took Tslagidave's advice and ordered some Sodium silicate (waterglass) to glue the cartridges up right.

The slurry of holy black does work very well, and it gives the paper a color like brown paper bags, sorta' an "aged look. 100 gr. of bp and water will do alot of paper, and just pour whats left back in a bottle for another day.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

You've read through the Dark Arts?  Of course you have!

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9695.0.html

[Noz]

Just asked the question out of curiousity.  Not wanting to start a flame war on the subject, so I hope no one takes offense.

I am loading .36 and .44 revolver paper cartridges. Always used the Bugler cig papers for years and just used the adhesive that was on the cig paper. Now I got into nitrating the paper and the glue disolves in the solution. I took Tslagidave's advice and ordered some Sodium silicate (waterglass) to glue the cartridges up right.

The slurry of holy black does work very well, and it gives the paper a color like brown paper bags, sorta' an "aged look. 100 gr. of bp and water will do alot of paper, and just pour whats left back in a bottle for another day.

One of the previous threads indicatd that the sodium silicate was dangerous to handle.  The historical reason for the material to be around is that it was, prior to refrigeration, used to dip eggs in for long term storage. Ate a bunch of them as a kid.

[Tsalagidave]

Yeah, the MSDS on sodium silicate emphasizes the importance of avoiding skin contact. I've gotten it on my skin before but quickly washed it off. Handling the dried cartridges never hurt me. Just to be on the safe side, I use latex gloves when I assemble rounds.

-Dave

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   I had read that Mucilage was the preferred adhesive, and I've used it for making "skin cartridges" for my LYMAN Remington '63 .44 revolver, as well as my EMF .54 Sharp's Carbine.
   It may interest you to know that I've had satisfactory results using non-glossy, nitrated newspaper for making these cartridges, as well as lined notebook paper, and 'wrapping/tissue' paper. I do not recall seeing any unburned ejecta after my shooting sessions. For what it's worth!

          Be Well!

                     M.T.Marfield

[Grapeshot]

I used to use Testors model airplane glue.  Worked well for my .50 caliber Shiloh Sharps carbine.

[Blair]

What happened to a paste or glue made from floor, and water? This could be done at home by thousands of school age kids.
Could this leave more residue behind than a thin paper cartridge tube?
I honestly don't know.
My best,
Blair

[Tsalagidave]

I avoid the regular glues per the advice of the old-timers. Making the old cartridges is one of those things for winter time when you have time on your hands.  The foil was actually the first attempt at self contained ammunition. The foil part of each round was individually paper wrapped and they were packed in tins (see photo.) The skin cartridge followed the combustible (paper) envelope before the various metallic case designs became the norm. I'd like to see the skin cartridges made but I have so many projects ahead of it, I'll likely never get around to doing it.

-Dave

[Bruce W Sims]

I've seen references to "skin" a few times and assumed (!?!) that folks meant a material
taken from the digestive track and processed. Now I am wondering if what folks mean
is what we used to call "onion skin"....that very fine typing/tracing paper. Can anyone help with
this?

BTW: I have a couple of packs of ZIG-ZAG "slow-burning" that I was going to use but am held up
trying to locate a recipe for the glue the 19th Century women would have used to roll paper
cartridges. Now I am also wondering about that "slow-burning" note and am thinking maybe I chose the
wrong paper. Help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce 

[Tsalagidave]

Hi Bruce,

Yes, "skin" referred to the beef intestine that was treated, cut and applied to these rounds. Onion skin paper is the best for combustible envelope paper. I have experimented with zig zags and came to the conclusion that they absolutely suck as ammo paper. They are way too brittle and dont carry well. You'll find this out  when you box them up and place the pack in your pocket. 20 miles of jostling down the road and they crumble into a mess of loose powder, ball and burst paper.

-Dave

[Bruce W Sims]

Thanks! That definitely saved me some headaches.

BTW: I went looking for the combustible glue and am having a problem.
Does Dixie offer it under some other name or label?  Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Tsalagidave]

Contact a chemical company and buy a bottle of water glass (sodium silicate).

-Dave

[ChuckBurrows]

FYI the glue used on most cigarette rolling papers is an old one - gum Arabic made from a tree resin

[Bruce W Sims]

Contact a chemical company and buy a bottle of water glass (sodium silicate).

-Dave

Will do...and thanks./B.

[Noz]

Most pharmacys have it in stock.