A thought about guns made outside the border (large essay)

[Michael Bear]

I want to share my opinion about the two rifles I was looking at recently. Winchester 1892 and it's copy- Rossi M92.
I used to be a purist when it comes to American arms. But this whole idea changed in the last few years and here is why.
While searching for a lever action I've noticed that a number of people who owns and use original American made guns is rather low. Of course all or most cowboy movies used a Winchester. Now, I'm thinking to myself, Winchester is no longer an American product. It's Japanese! And another thought came to my mind... I wonder how much are those costing now?
To my suprise (but sort of expected) it turned out that if I wanted a Miroku made Winchester it's a $1000.00 plus investment.
Now, Rossis are made in Brazil, so who gives...? I figured that Miroku Winchesters more than likely have a superior fit an finish but for for the money they're asking for it I can can like two and a half rifles from Rossi, or bunch of ammo, or a SAA to go with it, or leather scabbard, or whole cowboy outfit, or get my wife a USA made Henry in .22, so she doesn't bitch that I got a new rifle, etc etc etc.
I heard that some Rossis have kind of rough actions, but will slick up with time, or some minor part replacements.
I heard that some Rossis are ammo picky, especially in .357mag or .44spl, but I think it's a matter of polishing the feed ramp (who doesn't like gunsmithing their own guns, huh?).
I heard that some Mirokus are lemons as well, and some come finished rather poorly.
Sure I'd like Winchester's name on my barrel, but not like that!


So except that rahter stupid safety button on Rossis, I see no reason to buy a Winchester marked gun, knowing that it's not made in the Mighty USA. Now, I'm talking 1892 model, but same goes for the excellent Uberti 1873 which is a great rifle or others. No one cares to make it here in the USA. I'm glad that Italians made a lot of money. I guess they're a little smarter than us.
I'm partial to that same opinion when it comes to SAA, although I will spend the money for the COlt one day. Meanwhile, I will play with my excellent Ubertis ( who sell unfinished sixguns to Colt anyway), or excellent Rugers who will last my and my grandkids ( my son turns 1 tomorrow, daughter is 11), or Berettas or any other ones for half of third of the price of the Pony and four letter word on the barrel ahead of SINGLE ACTION ARMY.

I hope my milk and eggs in the morning are not imported.

So, in the conclusion, I would like to state that I will be wearing my American jeans and buy whatever American product that is left, and use my American heritage but somewhere-else made guns, because none of the manufactures care to pick up the market on homeland with the legends of the West, Freedom and People who fought for Libery and better today.

I want to apologize if I hurt anyones feelings or opinions.
This is not to be meant as a racist, fascist, or other prejudice statement.
Would like to hear your opinions on this.

Thank You,

Bear

[Major 2]

Bear

I am of age, when I clearly remember American Made products , pride in America and so forth.

I will decribe a point.... when I was a kid  Guns, Automobiles, televisions, even your coffee pot was Made in USA.

Take Automobiles,   Ford, GM , Chrysler ( Big 3 )&  American Motors (AMC)  had 97% of the US Market

That left 3% to mostly Volkswagon, Mercedes-Benz , some British Sport cars and a hand full of German & Itialian exotics you saw on ocasion.

The US Manufacturer's began to concern themselves , when it became 7 % ,  worry @ 10% and panic @ 20%
I won't say "THEY" Fiddled while Rome burned.... we saw AMC go under.

The Japanesee Makers took the World by storm ... 1st.  it seems Motorcycles,  ( American & British Bikes were the norm when I was kid )
No British bikes are left  ( oh there are some replica's ) Only HD is about holding well as a USA Product.
Everything else is Japanesee ( and they are being built here )

You can't buy a Made in USA Television

Toyota is bigger that GM is now , Nissan ( Datson ) Honda , Mazda are all assembled in the USA ( as are Hyundai & Kia which are Korean)

Chrysler is owned by the Itialian (Fiat)  and are built in Mexico , Chevy's are built in Canada & Australia ....

The Big 3 could not hold back the tide.... They joined them ...today we have world cars.

Colt as you stated worked with Uberti ,  Winchester is Japanesee , S&W which was sold to the British for a while and during that time tied in with Taurus Arms were World guns. 
Beretta is an Italian firearms manufacturer and make guns right here in the USA, for our own US Military
That's pretty Worldly.....

[joec]

Now I own a couple of Taurus pistols 1 of which is a daily carry gun my wife carries. I went out looking for a rifle just before joining NCOWS and after comparing them in the store (Bud's) I felt the 45 Colt Rossi 92 was the best choice of the Winchester and Marlins I looked at. So I ordered the exact model I wanted and have never looked back. I might add as a hunting rifle it will handle a lot heavier loads than either of the top two will as it has the strongest action out their in its class of rifle.

Now about 8 months ago I decided this coming year I would start hunting again, something I haven't done in  35 years. Well looking at rifles and thinking about where I would be hunting. Being I live in Kentucky and due to older with one eye I figured max range would be about 150 yards. So I came to the conclusion a brush gun lever action would be the best. I also decided I would go with a 45-70 as it is a caliber I've always been interested in. So again go to Bud's and look at two Marlin's and a Rossi Rio Grande. Again the Rossi had better fit and finish, smoother action  including a much better trigger. Unlike the 92 that needed some buff and polish the Rio needed only need a little work on the loading gate to make it easier to load. I mounted it with a Bushnell banner 1.5-4.5x32 dusk to dawn scope for $60 and walked out of Bud's for a grand total of $490 including tax while the blued Marlin I looked at was a bit over $900 with no scope mount or scope.

[pony express]

So, in the conclusion, I would like to state that I will be wearing my American jeans and buy whatever American product that is left,

What jeans are those?My Lee and Wranglers say "heche en Mexico" and I think Levis went there too. Not so many years ago, there were hundreds of people in my area sewing jeans for Lee, now it's all gone.

[joec]

One other note is Taurus Arms is in the process of acquiring Freedom Arms which is Remington, Marlin and others from what I've read recently.

[Hickok]

It is a global market now. The American made names like Ford,  GM, or Harley Davidson have as many foreign made parts in them as most imports. Yes even HD, the electronics, the brake systems, calipers and pucks, the shocks and fork components, etc. are Japaneese.

I say buy the best product with the most value for your money. The American CEO's of the big American companies could give a crap less about America, the American worker or the American consumer.

[Major 2]

It is a global market now. The American made names like Ford,  GM, or Harley Davidson have as many foreign made parts in them as most imports. Yes even HD, the electronics, the brake systems, calipers and pucks, the shocks and fork components, etc. are Japaneese.

I say buy the best product with the most value for your money. The American CEO's of the big American companies could give a crap less about America, the American worker or the American consumer.

in part some of that , is on the American worker's (Unions) fault, Please understand I was a 3rd. generation UNION member.
They demanded & received many concessions , drove both costs up & jobs elsewhere, mean while productivity & quality went down....

Classic example : the UAW & Colt, not mention the quality of Big 3 Automobiles in the 70's-90's. 

In my craft, the apprenticeship program went completely away, in part to Fed Gov. guildlines, my Union cared not to administer or deal with.
How do I know ?  I was an Union E-Board member.

Take a moment look around you , the computer your on , the TV you watch, being winter in the Northern Hemisphere, maybe the produce in your Fridge ?

Maybe the Car(s) in your driveway     perhaps your shoes Nike, Rebok, New Balance ?  & shirts you wear   ... truly a global market now !

[petrinal]

Uberti does not sell "unfisnished" revolvers to COLT. Colt makes his SAA´s in the US, from forgings made by another company in HARTFORD, CT.

they did sold in the past black powder cap and ball models for the the Colt Blackpowder line, long ago, and the myth comes from there. They were 3rd generation Colt Navies, armys, and Dragoons.

Coming back to the COLT SAA clones versus the original COLTs made today, the rifling in a UBERTI is clockwise...in a COLT is anti clockwise, and many parts are not interchangable, like cylinder, hammer screw, and even the grips are slighty different.

In short,  Uberti is italian, COLT is AMERICAN made.  The dimensions in the barrel muzzle are  also different, as well as the chambers, larger in the UBERTI. Uberti does not make SAAs for COLT,  but COLT makes his own revolver in the USA.

a UBERTI is normally more inconsistent in accuracy...the COLT  has dependable, trusty, accuracy. I have noticed that aspect in 25 meters competition...when you think that you have found "a perfect load", for your Uberti, the next day that same load...doesnt work so well...however you can trust the COLT more in that aspect, if you found the load, the revolver wont let you down, in most cases.

most western aficionados, by the type of shooting they do, mainly involving dynamic shooting, shooting at short distances, around 10/12 yards, wont see the difference. You will see the difference if you compete in serious bullseye, then you will see why the Colt cost more.

when it comes to a MIROKU, more or less the same....once you do serious shooting, competing in  serious accuracy matches, you will be able to appreciate how much dependable is the JAPANESE made rifle.

in general, not being myself specially pro american, I must admit that the US product is superior in both steel and accuracy to the brasilian, indian and sometimes, not allways,  italian product, thought not allways superior to the german, british or even spanish (our products are not so beautiful as the italian, but however are normally more durable).

MADE in USA is still for many of us, a guarantee of a well made product, specially when it comes to tools. Though cars is different, as the europeans are far more efficient.

There are crap american products also, of course, but whatever they may say, a Smith Wesson revolver is 10000Th times better than the TAURUS, and people, at least here in Europe, are willing to pay the extra. But you will only appreciate that when you use your guns in competition.

a Marlin is still much better finished than any Taurus or Rossi. Play close attention to the blueing, the corners, and the steel grade. Engrave one and you will see why the Marlin is better.

my SW K14 is an accuracy tool, that rivals or even surpasses some top of the line german competition pistols. In short, Made in USA is still a plus, and rarely you will see a product that reads so of bad quality. In my case, if I have to pay extra for a "Made in USA", I am ready to do it. I did so when I bought my Colts, or my Smiths. And I have bought one more Colt, when I can buy another Uberti for 3 times less, but they wont  shoot the same with the black powder loads I use, and I want the best when it comes to shooting.

all the best

[Major 2]

Colt is dead, has been since 1862  "Colt makes his SAA´s in the US"
.
"  Uberti does not make SAAs for COLT, ( never said it did )  but COLT makes his own revolver in the USA. "
Colt is owned by Donald Zilkha Co. Jewish Iraqi Citizen

For the record , I was refering to the Colt C&B's & BP series , no myth , Colt used some Uberti parts in the 2nd Gen. Guns.
Colt by the way , did not make the 3rd gen. the late Lou Imperato was the force behind them, he simply had an agreement with Colt.
Mr. Imperato also founded Henry Repeting Arms, his son Anthony is the CEO of HRA.
Colt will letter 2nd Gens., It does not letter 3 Gens.

FYI  The same British Holding Co. that bought Smith & Wesson also controled Taurus... Taurus was able to buy out.
S&W was almost lost, and was sold back to an American at a great financial loss to the Holding company.

"MADE in USA is still for many of us, a guarantee of a well made product, specially when it comes to tools"
Thank you for that 
I believe you've said you are a Spanish citizen ?   

[Michael Bear]

Good conversation. Very good. I think he was refering to me when he said "Colt buys unfinished product from Uberti".
Yes, I said that. Maybe I got wrong info.
Anyhow, let's continue on

[Six Gun Saint]

I've got to be honest, I've never much cared where the firearm was made, so long as it's reliable.  My Uberti revolvers have so far performed FLAWLESSLY, on factory or handload ammo.  Consistent groupings, even at distance.  Good, solid firearms.

My Rossi Rifle...  eh, it's got it's feeding problems, but it hits where I point it.  Never was a big Taurus fan (Rossi is made by Taurus), but it gets the job done at a cost I can live with.

My Rock Island 1911, while yeah, not as nice fit as a Colt, I've got more rounds'n I can count (I have said elsewhere more'n 50k, that's probably accurate) through it, and nary an issue yet.  I had ONE stovepipe back in the first 50-100 rounds.  ONE.  My local range RENTS the EXACT same firearm as what I shoot (the M1911A1-FS), and have not cleaned it once in the nearly four years it's been in service.  It's had more rounds'n MINE through it, and still is just a tickin' away like clockwork.  It's a 1911.  They're nigh unstoppable.  They're made in the Philippines.

BOTH my .22LR and my .30-30 are Marlin guns.  I do believe they're made in the USA, and boy howdy, I tell ya what-they're amazing in every way, shape, and form.  If I could FIND a damn 1894 Cowboy rifle, I'd snap one up so fast it'd make your head spin (if the cost were within my means).  Marlin makes some of the finest firearms I've ever had the good pleasure of shooting.

My shotgun is a Stoeger.  It's performed exactly as it should.  Can't complain.  Made in Brazil.

My wife shoots Beretta.  Needs no introduction, suffice to say there's never been an issue in the 20K+ rounds we've put through her little .32 (made in Italy).

My brother has a WASR-10 variant of the AK-47.  According to SEVERAL reviews, that firearm (the AK in general-not specifically the WASR) is the most reliable rifle ever made for any reason at all.  It was designed in Russia.  As was the Mosin-Nagant, a rifle that's still in use TODAY.

He's also got a DPMS AR-15.  Decent little shooter, but it's got it's issues.  Only had the pleasure of shooting it once.  He hocked it a while ago, and only just got it back.

His Chi-Com SKS takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'.  I ain't saying Norinco always gets it right (their 1887s are particularly deplorable, I'm told), but they got THAT one right.

On the same note, Hi-Point firearms are mostly crap.  It's hit and miss with them.  You can get one that works great, no worries-and sure, get a matching carbine to go with it, why not?  But you've also got the issue of it may not work at all, right out of the box.  They're made right here in the US of A.

I guess what I'm driving at is, it doesn't matter where the firearm was made, so long as it works the way it's supposed to, and does a damn good job for the money you paid.

[petrinal]

from the user´s point of view, sometimes you cant see the difference, unless you are very "into it". Let me share an example, which shows the reason why if I can buy german, japanese or european  made, in general, despite being most times more expensive, I am happy to pay more:

I remember visiting the Shot Show and testing binoculars  in every optics booth I could find,  from the very expensive german made ones, Zeiss, Leica,  austrian SWAROVSKI, to the made in China  ones. And my friends did the same...and many times they came to me and told me that "there was no difference" between a, lets say 800 $ Zeiss, and a 80 $ Bushnell ....

but as I worked as a  photographer, I could very well see the differences that they couldnt see:

the german/austrian lenses had allways less  spherical aberrations, were allways amazingly crisp and brilliant becasue both the polishing and the german cristal was superior, and were very very true and faithful to colour tones and had allways much more resolution. If you were not "into cameras and lenses" you would not see it...but I saw it! for my friends, who were not photographers, no difference...for me...an Ocean of differences between german and chinese optic. Even the top of the line Chinese was not equal to the german optics. So the price was just...the german/austrians gave you the best, and that has a price...

about american arms, they may say that a Philippine made pistol is great, why buying a COLT? well, not only the Colt is better machined, but the steel is far superior, is forged and not a casting in frame and slide, and you will notice that when you engrave one. The Colt broke me, when engraving the slide, several background chisels....and the cut was more cosistent, with a bright fine burr, than, for instance, STI, whose slides, and frames, in some models, are cheap philippine castings.

so when SW is asking double price for a revolver that Taurus has copied and sells at half the price, they are giving you really 100 % more quality. The highger cost does not go only in higher wages, but in higher grade steel, better finish, really rounded muzzles, same chamber dimensions, a great polishing job in the barrel muzzle, and a great experience making the best revolvers in the world.

I remember reading in an Argentinian forum about someone working in the testing laboratory of the  FRAY LUIS BELTRAN goverment facility, where they make both civilian and military ammo, like 38 spl.

they used SW revolvers for testing, and  most of them  lasted......100,000...200,000 rounds...even more...then they decided, after so many years, buying Taurus in the 1980´s......and they lasted........20,000 rounds...30,000 rounds...normally much less..before giving all type of problems.

so someone may say that it does not compensate to pay more for a SW and that a Taurus will do the same for far less...not true!... take that gun to the limit, compete with it in serious bullseye, where you may win or loose for just a point,  and you will realize why in some european matches, until recently, 8 out of ten competitors were using a SW K14, or a French Manurhin revolver, or a Sig P210 ...and not a Taurus.  Because they wanted the best.

I know that most of us  average consumers and shooters wont take our guns to that limit. Yes, they make crap too in the USA, but the ones who buy that crap, are not very interested in quality.

the good news is that they are negociating now a free trade agreement between USA/EUROPEAN UNION. If most people can buy here a COLT, for lets say, 1000 euros, instead of the 2200 euros we have to pay now for one, Uberti is going to sell a lot less here.

I have been distributing some american goods here lately, and believe me or not, the "MADE IN USA" sells a lot outside your borders...as many european consumers  associate it with a finely crafted product , while MADE IN BRAZIL or CHINA is associated with something useful but not valuable. So USA still has a name for quality outside its borders. It seems that many americans are not aware of that.

as I said, the exception is food or cars...though american food is regarded as "fun", and the Chevy Corvette is a very appreciated sport car, probably more than some italian delicatessen, regarded as "too expensive".

all the best

[petrinal]

Major 2,

I am spanish living in Spain, not a US resident.

all the best

[Six Gun Saint]

Petrinal, read back over my post.

Did I ever say that the "Name Brand" (Colt, S&W, etc.) firearms were lower quality than the copies?  Did I ever say you were better off spending your money on the cheaper?

No.

What I said was, "I don't care, so long as it does what it's supposed to do."

I know there is a major difference between my Uberti revolvers and a Colt.  I know my 1911 is not as well fit as a Colt.  I know my Stoeger ain't a Greener.  I'm not an idiot.  I know craftsmanship, and I can tell a difference just in the handling of a firearm.  I've done this for years.

But I'm not so stuck on myself as to think that anything that's not made by the original is cheap crap and a waste of money.

Here we go, you used optics as an example, as you're into photography-let me use guitars:  I am a former professional musician.  I have guitars of every make and model you can imagine-from Fender, to the cheapest knock off of a Fender money can buy (I gave $50 for it).  My da owns a Gibson Les Paul.  My former guitarist owned an Epiphone Les Paul.  There was a DISTINCT difference in the feel, fit, and finish of the instrument.  Just as there is between my $50 Lyon Strat Copy, and an actual American Made Strat, or, even the Mexican Made Fenders and the American Made.

I'm not arguing that point.

All I was saying is, the guns function reliably, they do what they need to do, and they do it damn well in many, many cases.

It does not matter to me where ANYTHING is made.  If it does the job RIGHT, and will give me reliable service for what I pay, then I see no issue with the item in question.

And yes, there ARE instances in which the "Copy" surpasses the original-so much so that Ibanez (for the record, I'm playing an Ibanez in my profile picture) was sued by Gibson for making copies that were above and beyond what Gibson was making, and they were less than half the cost.

So, I stand by my statement:  IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE IT CAME FROM, IF IT WORKS LIKE IT IS SUPPOSED TO, AND GIVES YOU GOOD SERVICE, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

[Don Nix]

Major 2,
 Just for clarification,although the Japanese motorcycle companies dominated the world market from teh mid 60s on,there has been a major change in the last fifteen years.
Although Harley Davidson is still the largest American motorcycle manufacturer, a large part of the motorcycle is made outside the US
But Victory motorcycles,a subsidiary of Polaris,are made in Spirit Lake Iowa. In the past 15 years Victory has grown to be the no. 2 seller of large cruiser motorcycles out shining the Japanese companies and 2nd only to Harley Davidson.
Plus Polaris has recently acquired and reintroduced Indian Motorcycles, reviving Americas Oldest motorcycle company. Both Victory and Indian are made in Iowa with American parts and utilizing American labor.
Polaris is good example  of how a company can succeed without kowtowing to the unions. While Polaris is expanding its motorcycle divisions,and its stock is going thru the roof in this economy, Harley Davidson is cutting production and limiting models.
 

[RickB]

Please tell me what parts of a Harley are made outside the USA. Sure some parts are like some electronic parts, but I'll bet that many American motorcycle and car manufacturers do the same.

I keep hearing this claim but I would like to see some proof and percentages. I don't wish to hijack the thread but I am interested in seeing this statement clarified and backed up.

From a search I just did it seems the percentage is that 80% of a Harley is American made. I don't consider the remaining 20% that to be "a large part of the motorcycle ". Only HD can confirm or deny this.

[Twitchy]

When I was looking for a new car my wife insisted on me testing a Honda.  It felt pretty chintzy.   know theyre popular, but I wanted to try American again and ended up getting a Chevy Equinox.  When I looked at the VIN...started with a 2, made in Canada At least the money stays here, and I like the car.  Regardless of Colts status, Rugers are American, tough as hell and affordable.  I wish they would make a version of the 1873 rifle.  You can bet it would run great and never break.

[petrinal]

Six gun,

the problem is that sometimes to get the job done, you need the best. Thats why it pays off to spend more in a COLT or SW.

it ist truth that some affordable clones are great. For instance, my Taurus Gaucho shoots better, with any load, than my Uberti. In general, I dont trust italian clones for top results, they take me more effort to get good loads than other clones,  like german, belgian, or spanish (The Remington  1858 made by Santa Barbara in spanish arsenal OVIEDO was far more accurate than any UBERTI or Pietta I had and with better steel).

anyway, I just share my experience with american made products, not being myself the most pro USA man in this part of the world, as many of you know,  I must admit that I prefer to pay more for the MADE IN USA.  I´ve been selling some american  western type holsters here, with the MADE IN USA on them (well, on the box) and people buy them just because of that. They read the "made in USA", and buy it blindly, not only this product, but all in general, cars the exception.

where does this phenomenon come from? I think that it comes from the early 1900´s, when americans won a deserved  fame for being great machinists, making tools that lasted and were really well made. I suppose that WW2 helped too.

it is interesting that Italians, however, are known as great designers here,  though not famous for making cars that last.....the british are famous however for supreme quality, from chocolate to cars,  and the germans, for more or less the same. It is obvious that when you buy something, you buy more than a tool...you buy an invesment and a name.

in some cases, like COLT or SW, the fame is justified and the higher price too.

PD:

The japanese are known for making clones better than the original....

[Cliff Fendley]

Twitchy is right, you can talk, scratch your head, test and compare, and write pages on your discoveries but if you want to buy USA made and want the most dependable gun made then the obvious choice is a Ruger.

I've had Colts break, S&W's break, Uberti's break, Peitta's break, seen problems with the Gaucho, the list goes on. The Ruger's hands down are the toughest most dependable guns made and I've never owned one that didn't shoot good.

I prefer to shoot a SAA in CAS because they are more historically accurate but it never hurts to have a Ruger with you. The last gun running will be a Ruger, they are built like a tank.

[Hickok]

Please tell me what parts of a Harley are made outside the USA. Sure some parts are like some electronic parts, but I'll bet that many American motorcycle and car manufacturers do the same.

I keep hearing this claim but I would like to see some proof and percentages. I don't wish to hijack the thread but I am interested in seeing this statement clarified and backed up.

From a search I just did it seems the percentage is that 80% of a Harley is American made. I don't consider the remaining 20% that to be "a large part of the motorcycle ". Only HD can confirm or deny this.

HD should say American assembled, not American made.  

Front fork assembly is Showa, Japan
Rear shocks Showa Japan,
Brake systems, Nissin, or Brembo, Japan or Italy
Some wheels, Australia, http://www.bikernewsonline.com/2007/03/harley-wheels-made-in-australia.htm
most electonics and lights, Japan and some China,
Some parts of Fuel Injection system, Japan.

Ok I wont say "a large part of the Motorcycle", but I don't wont drink the coolade.

My Honda 1800 VTX was assembled at the Honda plant in Marysville Ohio, by Americans, and has "Made in the USA" on the back of the seat in white letters. It also has Showa, Nissin, and other Japaneese parts, from the same companies that supply HD with some parts. So HD is "All American" and my Honda is Japanese American.