Nitrating paper for Cartridges

[Hickok]

I would like to run this by you all and get your opinions. Never heard of anyone doing it before, maybe someone has.

I took some blackpowder and poured it into water and mixed and added until I got a good black soup. Then I soaked some cigarette papers in the BP concoction. Let the papers dry. Took a nice big ole' lit cigar and just touched the edge of the cigarette paper with the red hot end of the cigar and the paper slowly disappeared completely, nothing left but ash.  No flash, no flame, just a red line burning across the paper in all directions until it was consumed entirely.

Tried the same on an untreated piece of cigarette paper and nothing happened.

So then I took a regular piece of typing paper and soaked it in the bp solution and after it dryed I again touched the edge with a lit cigar and it slowly diappeared exactly like the treated cigarette paper, nothing left but ash.

This may work well for completely combustable revolver catridges. I have made paper cartridges before for my percussion revolvers, but always had a little paper left in the cylinders after a few reloads. The typing paper would make a stronger cartridge than the cig paper. This looks promising and I am going to give it a try.

Any comments or ideas would be welcomed.

[Hickok]

Pictures of the bp "nitrated" paper and a round ball with lube and felt wad used to load cartridge. I cut a felt wad to .451" and then cut a small hole in the center to make it set square on the ball so it would fit into paper cartridge and also so it would true up in the cylinder chamber and allow the ball to seat straight and true. Then put some SPG or your favorite lube above the wad and below the ball bearing surface. I made a small pellet or ball of the lube and then put it between the felt wad and ball and pressed down. Then mold the lube to proper diameter with your finger and wipe off excess. take a q-tip and clean any lube off the ball bearing surface so you can glue the paper cartridge to the ball. Also a paper/card wad can be cut to .440" diameter, then lube, instead of the felt wad, or I put the paper/card wad under the felt wad next to the powder. Just not sure about loading a donut felt wad with a hole in it, as I am not positively sure it would always blow out of the barrel. So the thin paper/ card wad at the base of the felt seems like a safe idea.

I came upon this idea after looking at Civil cannonball rounds and how they had a sabot fixed to the cannon ball for loading.

This paper cartridge loads easy, has lube, and seals the chamber, and uses very little powder space. As to the lube migrating to the powder or absorbing  into the paper, it is a non issue as far as I am concerned, but others may differ.

[Hickok]

Picture of finished cartridge. The discoloring on the paper around the bullet is where I glued the cartridge to the ball.

[Six Gun Saint]

I seem to recall reading something about troops carrying paper cartridges like that back "in the day," as it were.  In the article, the fella was lamenting the fact that "Cartridge Paper" was no longer on the market, and that indeed, cigarette paper would have you cleaning your pieces FAR more often than you'd otherwise do.

IF it's safe (didn't mean for the emphasis on if there, but the key stuck, and hey, safety IS key, right?  typo for the win!) I don't see it as being an issue. 

In fact, after I get my setup for BP C&B (and it is coming-I just went with cartridge revolvers first, easier, cheaper), I may do something similar.

The question is, do you have to perforate the paper to get ignition?  Or have you tried that ye...  wait, scratch that-naturally you'll get ignition with no issues, as the paper is coated in BP.  Sorry, it's the weekend, and I'm not all together there!

[hellgate]

I used to "nitrate" the cig paper by dipping it into a SATURATED solution of KNO3 and letting it dry. Yours are soaked in a less then saturated solution so they burn slower. It isn't ever gonna be like flash paper. A good source for KNO3 is stump remover. It is probably around 2 bucks a pound in the garden center. Even with the nitrated paper I still carried a tweezer with me to fish out unburned paper. I had a fair amount of misfires too, even after punching the charged chambers with a nipple pick. I eventually just broke off the bottom of the cartridge as I  seated it so raw powder got to the flash hole and I had no problems after that. I've since gotten very fast with a powder flask, wads and balls but it is still kinda cool to stuff in a cartridge to speed things up as long as you have the spare time (e.g. while watching westerns) to roll your own.

[Hickok]

Hellgate I have used just Bugler cig papers in the past and like you after a few reloads I would have to check and remove some paper from the cylinders, usually a donot shaped piece back near the nipples/flash hole. I am going to try some "Stump Remover".

I don't use paper cartridges much, but they are fun to have along when you are shooting and someone shows up and has never been around Cap and ball revolvers! "Hey you ever seen a paper cartridge?" 

[Hickok]

Sixgun, I never perforated my paper after loading, I just rammed it into the cylinder, capped her up and was good to go. The cap blows right through the paper.

Some fellows do ram a nickle pick through the cone hole to get a hole in paper.

[Tsalagidave]

-Hickok,

Great job on the rounds. You came to the right place on this subject. I know that a lot of us here have tried this. As much as I'd love to take credit for doing this myself, I actually got my notes from others on this forum, compared it to originals and then started experimenting with what I'd learned from the folks here.

The closest I've found to the original combustible envelope paper is 9-lb. onionskin paper. Its about $30 a ream but you'll never shoot through all of it in your lifetime. Make a solution of bottled water and saltpeter (buy online from any chemical retailer) Pre-cut your peices, soak them in the solution and press them between 2-glass plates so that they dry flat and no saltpeter leeches out into something else. (Use gloves when handling this stuff BTW.)

Someone on this site posted "Don't use craft glue. The burnt residue of it will stick in the rifling and ruin your gun". He's right. Use sodium silicate instead. The guys on this site give such good advice that I used a lot of their notes in my projects and they are in my archives still. Search a guy here named Gatofeo. He gives great advice on making paper cartridges.  A lot of people have tried this so there are a lot of people to ask.

Here are some pictures of my attempt. I cast my rounds using an original Colt Navy conical mold.

-Dave

[Hickok]

Thanks Dave, I read alot of good info here on paper cartridges. I just never heard of anyone using a dip of bp and water on the paper. I guess there are a lot better ways to nitrate paper!

Your rounds sure look good. That Colt box label is outstanding.

I am going to take your tips and use them.  I will have to search the web for some sodium silicate, as I live up in the mountains here in WV and the nearest place to find such things would be 60 miles.

I have read some of Gatofeos  posts here and on other sites. He know his topic very well.

[Tsalagidave]

Thanks Brother, (I saw your signature)

That box was my first attempt. I am now drilling the wood blocks for the packages as they originally were done. A friend of mine in the UK got a hold of an original label and digitally cleaned it up for me. I doubt there is a market for these things. They are more of a labor of love for fellow enthusiasts like us.

For your rounds, I strongly recommend using either a Lee or Colt .375 conical mold (w/o a wad) and grease your rounds to eliminate the risk of a chain fire.

I was thinking about ordering a box from Charlie's Boatworks and see how many packages I can get into this thing. Its amazing how many of these things you can make while watching TV.

-Dave

[Hickok]

Thanks Brother, (I saw your signature)



-Dave

And to you Brother!

[Tsalagidave]

In regards to the chemicals, you can get it on Amazon.com.

Saltpeter
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=potassium+nitrate+powder&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=4528016709&hvpos=1t2&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7942240141322499552&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_672oslqnr4_b

Sodium Silicate (water glass)
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=sodium+silicate&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Asodium+silicate

My process parrots a lot of what the other folks on this site have done but I'll gladly send it to you in a PM if you'd like.

-Dave

[Hickok]

Dave I took your advice and ordered some Sodium Silcate powder. The powder was alot cheaper to ship than the water solution.
Also found some "Stump Remover" at a local hardware, and label says it contains potassium nitrate. Nitrated some papers with it, and after drying, test lit one and it sparkled away and disappeared leaving soot.  

[Tsalagidave]

Nice, when you make your solution, use plain bottled water to keep the impurities to a minimum. Mix enough sodium silicate into the water until it is fully dissolved and there are undissolved crystals on the bottom. Although I have had direct skin contact with saltpeter and water glass without observing any ill effects, the MSDS still advises that you wear gloves when handling the stuff.

You can get latex gloves along with a fine-nozzled applicator bottle (for the water glass) at any drugstore.

I use a 3/8" dowel that tapers down to about a 1/3" flat point. (Very subtle grade, gives my rounds a slight taper as seen on original cartridges.

I'll photograph my next batch when I make it.

-Dave

[Hickok]

The "water glass" came in the mail yesterday, so am making paper cartridges the "Sam Colt" way. Thanks to all for the help and info and a special "beholden to ya" to Tsalagidave.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I gave up paper cartridges after having some collapse on me on a rainy day on the WET coast. 

I now use "Mongoose speed-loaders." 

Mongoose was on the Open Range very briefly, just long enough to pass on a valuable tip.  He used fired brass cartridge cases to hold a load of powder with the ball pressed on top.  To use, just pinch off the ball & pour the powder in the chamber and top off with the ball and complete loading per normal.  A .357 mag case holds my '51 load of 22 gr of 3Fg.  Any .44 cases works the same for for the 44s.

I wrap packs of 5 or 6 in aluminum foil and carry a couple of packs in a cap-pouch.  The only other things I need to carry are a loaded capper and some lubed wads.

Not really historical, but very handy

[Drayton Calhoun]

I'm preparing to try tracing paper nitrated for cartridges. It already burns quick, plus, it looks right.

[Hickok]

Sir Charles, I have used .45 Colt cases for "speed loaders" in .44 Army loads, and they work well. Got the idea from Speer Reloading Manual. They would use round balls for reduced charge plinking loads in handgun cartridges.

Drayton, post some pictures of your finished cartridge, it is always neat to see others handiwork!

Always had a hankering for a Pendersoli Civil war era Sharps using paper cartridges. Maybe someday!

[Tsalagidave]

The combustible cartridges are a great detail if you are really going after a period 1860's shooting experience. Combustible envelope cartridges really did not start hitting the mainstream market until 1859 although they were not the first attempt at making a self-contained round for the percussion revolving pistols. They are a pain in the neck regarding modern solutions but one big point of making and dealing with these little guys is to appreciate how we have come technologically.

It is a little faster than working with loose powder and ball but a lot more convenient since all you need is a package of rounds and a tin of caps in your pocket as opposed to a flask, (wadding), bag of balls and caps.

Here are some loading, packing tips that I recommend for anyone working with combustible envelopes in a Colt's patent revolver.

*The original Colt wood-box packages are shellacked. I use a light coat when packaging mine. This was done to protect the powder from humidity in the climate or from the perspiration in one's coat/shirt pocket.

*The paper envelope does not always disintegrate completely. More likely than not, I find the blown edges of the cartridge at the bottom of my chambers. The concussion and oxygen consumption that remains in the chambers in the fractions of a second after ignition accounts for why the paper is never smoldering when reloading.

*I have reloaded 2-3 times without clearing the chambers and have never had a misfire or cook-off.

*To clear un-burnt paper, use your bore brush. One half-twist brings it all up. I used a wire .380 cal cleaning brush to replicate the "pull-through" cleaning brushes that were commonly used during the period. (see attached photo)

*The biggest hassle with the loading the period conical rounds is to break off the lead bullet when cycling the chamber under the loading lever. An easy fix (on a Colt) is to loosen your wedge pin and pull the barrel assembly away from the cylinder to assist in properly seating the ball if necessary.

*Some Slather in the grease on the chambers; I don't. I put about 2-drops of pistol oil on the point of each round. It naturally works into the crevice between my .375 ball and the walls of the tube creating a good seal. I do this because when you desert trek like I do, the triple-digit temperatures will liquefy your big dollop of pistol grease into a big mess on your holster and pant leg. Second, the excess grease is a sand magnet. One errant grain of sand in my pistol grease ruined the rifling on an ASM blackpowder gun of mine years ago. Since then. I do a couple of drops frontier style and have never suffered from it through many thousands of rounds fired.

*Also, pay just as much attention to your caps. Many feel that an open breech from a missing cap is an even greater risk of a chainfire than an un-greased ball. Rather than bet solely on either horse, I avoid the risk on both counts.



-Dave

[Hickok]

Well after making some papercartridges, I fine-tuned my process and the easiest and best way for me is to nitrate the cig paper, roll and stick with waterglass, load with bp, lightly bounce the paper about a half inch off the table to settle/tamp the powder down in the paper cartridge, then seat a thin cardboard wad cut to .440" (because of the taper of the paper cylinder), then take a small daub of SPG or WONDERLUBE, or homemade lube, about half the size of a pea, stick it on the roundball, and then just shove the ball down into the paper cartridge on top of the paper wad, as the lube will spread itself out nice and even. Works nice and easy, sticks the roundball right there. Then I can glue the paper to the ball with waterglass, or just leave it as is, the lube pretty well sticks the ball in.

Used a once fired .44 magnum case to cut cardboard wads to .440" and set out twenty or so .45 Colt brass in a loading block to set paper cartridges in while charging with bp and seating wads. No spills and makes everthing easy to handle.

Really if I have the paper nitrated and made into cylinders, making paper cartridge doesn't take anylonger than reloading for my .44 Mags or .45 Colt metallic rounds.