Prevalence of Cavalry Holster use by civillians

[Georgian87]

Hey yall. I was wondering the other day what the chance would have been of
civillians using cavalry-style holster during westward expansion after the Civil War.
Say confederate cavalry types using the holsters they carried during the war or
even former federal cavalry troops. I have a repro cavalry holster, and it
is quite comfortable with an 1851 R-M Navy, plus it offers alot of protection for
the sidearm. It isnt all that slow for the draw either. Any input would be greatly
appreciated!

[Camano Ridge]

There are undoubredly people on here with more credentials as an Old West Historian then Myself, However here is what I know. I don't know if prevelant would be the correct word however I know for a fact that it did happen. I have a holster that was issued to my great great grandfather he fought for the Confedracy as a member of The Northern Army of Virginia. Some time after the war he cut the flap off of it. When you say military type do you mean actul military issued or once that resembled military becuase they wdere of the butt forward Cavalry draw style?

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Camino Ridge/: Georgian87,

I myself have heard it said that the original Californian Slim Jim was nothing but a cut down military holster .... I'm just sayin ....

TTFN

[Mean Bob Mean]

Camino Ridge/: Georgian87,
I myself have heard it said that the original Californian Slim Jim was nothing but a cut down military holster .... I'm just sayin ....

This is accurate as best I have been able to ascertain.  Weren't they called "pistol scabbards"?  That would indicate a military origin.

[St. George]

Tell you what.

Get a copy of Rattenbury's 'Packing Iron'.

You'll sometimes find it at your Public Library, and if they don't have a copy - they'll order it for you on an 'Inter-Library Loan'.

It'll answer all of your questions about gunleather - both Military and Civilian.

Scouts Out!

[bedbugbilly]

Why wouln't they have been used . . . quite a few ended up "going home".  You have to remember that there was a tremendous about of "surplus" after the war.  Cap boxes lost their wool and were utilized for pistol cartridges.  As technology changed, things became obsolete and sold off as surplus - not unlike today.  Bannerman's in NY was a good example -  they offered just about everything for years.  45/70s were so prevalent that Bannerman's utilized the barrels as "re rod" in the cement of their piers on Bannerman's Island - I have one in my collection that a friend of mine picked up out of the crumbling cement years ago when he visited the Island.  My Dad was born in 1908 nd I can remember him telling that when he was a kid, Civil War haversacks were being utilized as "book bags" by kids as they were only a few cents each. 

Over the years, I've seen many "period" images where such things as belts with sword plates (eagle buckles) are worn by civilians and if my memory isn't too fragile, I believe military flap holsters as well.  Such things as military belts, holsters, cap boxes, etc. that were brought home by veterans were sometimes put away in trunks, attics, etc. and have shown up years later.  Others, when a person was getting ready to move west, were without a doubt considered "utility" items - items to be used everyday.  Like anything else - muskets that were "sporterized" and cut down for shotguns, etc. - I have no doubt that such things as flap holsters were "altered" as well.  The average person in those times, unless wealthy, didn't have a lot of material possessions - they used what they had. 

My grandfather, who was born in 1867 as well as my Dad, always had horses.  I still have a Spanish American War blanket that was one of many they purchased in the early 1900's as "surplus" and utilized as horse blankets.  I still have an army issue horse blanket from WW I that my Dad bought as surplus in the 30's. 

Packing Iron - which we all know is a great book - shows the transition of the military holster.  As newer handguns were adopted by the military - so were new holster designs.  The older flap holsters went somewhere - usually sold off as "surplus" and utilized by civilians as well as other accouterments.

[Trailrider]

Hey yall. I was wondering the other day what the chance would have been of
civillians using cavalry-style holster during westward expansion after the Civil War.
Say confederate cavalry types using the holsters they carried during the war or
even former federal cavalry troops. I have a repro cavalry holster, and it
is quite comfortable with an 1851 R-M Navy, plus it offers alot of protection for
the sidearm. It isnt all that slow for the draw either. Any input would be greatly
appreciated!

The chances were excellent that former soldiers of the CW utilized "belt scabbards" they took home. ("Holsters" for quite some time referred to saddle holsters carried on the pommels of the saddles to hold single-shot pistols or Dragoon-sized revolvers.) Some cut the flaps off, but that probably occurred more once metallic cartridge guns, either conversions or newly manufactured guns were used.  In some instances, some might even have cut the belt loop off, turned the holster around, butt rear, and sewed or riveted on a new belt loop on the other side, so the gun was butt-rear. The butt-forward carry, whether on the strong side or crossdraw is very handy and comfortable, especially sitting on a horse. 

[St. George]

This addresses the 'surplus' idea.

*********

St. George's Notes - XIX - 'Army Surplus'...
« on: July 17, 2006, 11:57:36 am »
   

This 'note' addresses a seldom-referred-to - but popular myth that there was a sort of thriving 'Army-Navy Surplus' sales system on the Frontier.

Far from it.

The Army - though it had won a long and bloody war - was left with the security of the Frontier and of the increasing stream of Emigrants opening up the West to contend with - and the Mission was woefully under-funded by an impecunious Congress who viewed the military as a drain on the economy.

There were mounds of equipment 'surplus to the needs' of the country - but there were also 'needs of the Service' to be met.

What better way to do that than to continue issue of already-paid-for uniforms and gear?

So - that's exactly what they did.

Granted - the many large cannon and much rolling stock - along with livestock - were sold, as was Government Whisky and numerous other 'stuff' - but that went to folks who were, for the most part - end users or brokers for same.

The average civilian didn't have the local Army-Navy Store - ala' a Bannerman's - until after the Spanish-American War.

Meanwhile, back at the Fort - troops on campaign were busily wearing out issue clothing at a furious rate and having it replaced with old, shoddy, Civil War stocks.

Then - there was another player in the game - the Bureau of Refugees, Freedmen and Abandoned Lands, often referred to as the Freedmen's Bureau, which was established in the War Department by an act of March 3, 1865.

The Bureau supervised all relief and educational activities relating to refugees and freedmen, including issuing 'rations, clothing and medicine'.

And where did they get 'those' things?

From the vast stockage still held by Uncle Sam.

Uniform and clothing items designated 'condemned' were given to this agency as well as others - though that title really only meant that there was no continued need for it or that it was in worn condition.

As an aside - the Bureau also assumed custody of confiscated lands or property in the former Confederate States and Border states, the District of Columbia and Indian Territory.

Never popular, and sometimes mis-managed - it was eventually disbanded after 1872.

By that time - the Uniforms were changing as well and the old stocks were depleted.

Could a civilian buy a rubber ground cloth or a blanket or canteens?

Certainly - in town - from a dealer in goods who would also buy from deserting or thieving soldiers.

As to other uniform items - not really, as the Quartermaster made no provision for it.

The soldier simply wasn't issued very much and what was issued as often of poor quality - thanks to the clothing contracts going to low bidders of the War.

He was also 'signed' for it and had to replace it out of pocket, should it go missing.

Not always the best option, for a man whose Congress may've forgotten to pay him for a couple of months.

Besides - better clothing was available at the Sutler's and in town.

Should you so desire - by all means, outfit your Impression with an old Army canteen and ground sheet - and a pullover shirt, as well.
And maybe a greatcoat, to boot - since there were enough of them floating around, heavy and cumbersome though they were, and besides - you could cut the bottom off, to better mount your horse.

You could've realistically bought them outright from your Supply Sergeant as you finished your enlistment - or from 'a guy in town' - but being able to walk into a store for a selection of those goods would be a few years in coming.

The Soldier - and the Army, itself - weren't looked upon fondly - unless needed.

Folks were tired of the War, and wanted fresh starts, and didn't want reminders.

Post-Civil War, the returning Veterans on both sides would wear what they were issued - but when it wore out - they went into a Dry Goods - or to a seamstress for their next outfit, and didn't look back, as they were too busy re-building America.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Thanks for the great information, St George. That clarifies things considerably.