. . . bought another Remington . . .

[Wolfgang]

Yep . . . cudn't resist it . . . . 

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=201651 

[King Medallion]

That's right purty. 

[The Trinity Kid]

It looks original for sure. The hammer angle is different than my New Army I noticed, but that is probably due to being an Italian copy.   

--TK

[Major 2]

Cool piece ..brings back a sad memory to me though

back in early 80's I bought one from a Gun Shop I often frequented... it was a consignment piece and the price was around $300
in 1980 dollars....
I took my prize home, and paired it up with my 1860 Army, my collection of CW Cavalry arms was budding nicley.

Then sadness ..the Gunshop called, seems the Gun really belong to another , the person that consigned it did not own it ,  I think it was his Father in Laws gun...he had infact stolen it  or that is want I was told...
I was legal , but the shop was in deep poop, and I had to do the right thing and return it.
In reality, I had no choice,  even though I bought it fair & square and could prove it ,  it was stolen,  and I could have been prosecuted I guess,  as the gunshop was.
Sadly, the shop was closed.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Major 2,

Kinda brings back the cliche that no good deed will go unpunished .... darn it?

TTFN,

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Wolfgang,
What does the inscription on the BBL read?

That looks like a rarer Remington - Beals Elliot's Transition to NMA with ALL the refinements, last model issued before the release of the NMA, hence the Silver front sight, the high hammer, etc. These were issued with all or most all of the NMA refinements, just in the 6 months prior to the NMA being released. IT appears to have the smaller Remington - Beals Frame also, this is one of rarer Remington - Beals models found. This one has the scooped breech.

Nice snag!!

[Wolfgang]

Wolfgang,
What does the inscription on the BBL read?

That looks like a rarer Remington - Beals Elliot's Transition to NMA with ALL the refinements, last model issued before the release of the NMA, hence the Silver front sight, the high hammer, etc. These were issued with all or most all of the NMA refinements, just in the 6 months prior to the NMA being released. IT appears to have the smaller Remington - Beals Frame also, this is one of rarer Remington - Beals models found. This one has the scooped breech.

Nice snag!!

Charlie, . . . . Yes.   You know more about 'em than I do.   The seller stated in the description that it had a Beals Cylinder ( no safety notches ) . . . . and I could see that the frame ( lots of barrel threads showing ) and the barrel ( German silver front sight dovetailed ) were Beals.   I figure it was just an odd-ball that had left over Beals parts in it.    So if there is an identifiable Remington variation that is the "Beals Elliot's Transition" . . . then that is just great !  

ps.  I used to drool over your collection of original Remingtons.  Now I have one of my own !  

pps.   I have acquired two shootable original Winchester '73 . . . both from the 1880s.  

The barrel inscription is not readable in the photos I have.  Too small and some pitting over it.  Will post about it when I have the pistol in hand.  

Serial no. is   13xxx

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

If you look for my post on the Euroarms 58 Remy on this forum you will see my post that the Euroarms/Armi San Paolo Remy's are patterned after the Remington - Beals Elliot's Transition to the NMA Second Model(barely relieved at the breech).

These R-B Elliot's Transition to NMA are mentioned in the book Remington Army and Navy Revolvers 1861-1888: Donald L. Ware, Pages 342-349. A few pictures, but not many. There is a picture of the R -B Elliot's Transition to NMA 3rd Model(like yours) on page 349. Not all of these 3 models had all of the NMA refinements, and can be a mix of NMA refinements as well, but all are R-B frames.

This Version you have came after the Elliot's Patent Remington - Beals with the sliding cylinder pin.

[Wolfgang]

Year of production ?   

In the listing for sale on this pistol . . . one place it says 1862 production . . . in another it says  1861.   Serial no. is   13,2xx   so what year month of production does that make it ?   I don't know where that information is available.   

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I don't know either at this point in time. It may well say in the book, but all I have is copies of the pages I referenced, I don't have the book yet.

I don't know the date the NMA was released either, but these last RB Elliot's Transition to NMA's were made in the  months preceding the introduction of the NMA.

[Arizona Trooper]

Very nice transitional Army! According to Ware's book, it would have been made in Feb. of '63. I think someone was getting confused with the Navy numbers. If yours was a Navy, that number would have been made in about May of '62. Yours looks like it has the Old Model hammer, front sight and cylinder without safety notches, but the New Model frame. There was a lot of overlap in the Elliotts-New Model transition. I don't think you can pin-point a transition date or number. It happened over several months of production. 

It ought to be a great shooter! 

[Wolfgang]

Very nice transitional Army! According to Ware's book, it would have been made in Feb. of '63. I think someone was getting confused with the Navy numbers. If yours was a Navy, that number would have been made in about May of '62. Yours looks like it has the Old Model hammer, front sight and cylinder without safety notches, but the New Model frame. There was a lot of overlap in the Elliotts-New Model transition. I don't think you can pin-point a transition date or number. It happened over several months of production. 

It ought to be a great shooter! 

Trooper . . . thanks for the input.   I thought that the frame was Beals do to the amount of barrel threads showing.  But I ain't no X-purt.  It made it to the L.A. area Monday ( UPS info ) and is due in Yucky Valley Tuesday.   I'll wait until Wednesday to go claim it as I only go to town early and I don't know what time of day UPS delivers to the mail store that I use.  It is gonna be just GREAT . . . 

. . . . and I'll soon be in the market for another one.   Can't have just ONE. . . .  . . . .  and I'm sure that after I have a pair of them . . . . I'll be in the market for another one . . . . after all . . . if you shoot a pair of original Remingtons . . . then your back up pistol just be another original Remington . . . RIGHT ? . . . of course . . . . 

. . . did I mention something about being a "Gun-A-Holic" . . .

My lever gun is an original Winchester '73 made in 1886 . . . . and my back up is . . .

. . . . of course another original Winchester '73 made in 1883.  Whut else would any "Gun-A-Holic" have . . . . 

[The Trinity Kid]

  I need another one, preferably NOT Italian.......

--TK

[Wolfgang]

Got it in my hands yesterday.  Shot it today.  Finish is nicer then in the sellers photos.  Quite a bit of pitting on the cylinder.  I'd heard that Pietta cylinders would work.   That was posted a few years back but fellow that took a Pietta cylinder to a gun show and tried it in several pistols.  But those were probably New Model Armys ?   This is a Beals frame.  Were they a little different ?   Any how my Pietta cylinders would not fit.  But I had an Army San Marco with an extra cylinder somewhere and knew that those cylinders were shorter.  Dug it out and sure enough the cylinders fit and function fine.  In the photo the original cylinder is in the lower right.  Those ASM cylinders had sat loaded for years.  I took 2-3 strikes with the hammer to get them to fire.  Thru balls all over the back board and none on the target.  Good stong rifling thru the barrel.  Haven't slugged it yet.  Will slug it and try shooting hollow based conicals next.

http://s1259.beta.photobucket.com/user/DrBurkholter/media/Beals-ElliotTransitionalRemington_zps013b182a.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2   

[Arizona Trooper]

Wolfgang, it sure looks nice! Check the size of you cylinder bores. A lot of Italian cylinders are bored undersize. It ruins any hope of  the accuracy.

Here are a couple shots of a Beals/Elliotts frame vs a New Model. Note the Beals has no exposed barrel threads where it meets the cylinder. Also, the top back of the frame at the hammer is a lot rounder on the New Model.   

[Wolfgang]

Wolfgang, it sure looks nice! Check the size of you cylinder bores. A lot of Italian cylinders are bored undersize. It ruins any hope of  the accuracy.

Here are a couple shots of a Beals/Elliotts frame vs a New Model. Note the Beals has no exposed barrel threads where it meets the cylinder. Also, the top back of the frame at the hammer is a lot rounder on the New Model.   

Trooper . . . . thanks for the reply.   I was under the impression that the Bleals frame showed more threads than the N. M. Army .  But I ain't no X-purt.  And never really delved into stuff about the Beals.  So it would seem that I have a N. M. Army frame with a Beals barrel and hammer.   I need to slug the bore.  Intened to do that last evening but we have storm going on and I didn't feel like going over to the shop. 

Thanks for the information and the photos.   

[Wolfgang]

Dimensions . . . . .
                             Length      chambers

Beals cylinder          2.010          .449  -  .452 at the mouths - - smaller deeper and they vary some

Kirst converter         2.020          .450
ASM                       2.010          .450
Pietta                     2.020          .455
Beals barrel bore     .450

My conical bullets     .454   rebated at the base and hollow based

I'll shoot some of the hollow based conicals and report results.    

[Wolfgang]

Put 10 of the conical bullets thru it today.   They do group though pretty ragged and very high. 

Will try higher charges and see if more pressure will expand them better into that very loose bore.   

[Wolfgang]

Shooting my original.   Problems, . . .

Ho-K . . . shot my original with round balls out of ASM cylinders.   At  15 yards on the pistol range splattered the hits all over the back board with none on the target.   

Then loaded with hollow based conical bullets.   Fired 10 and they grouped ( ragged ) and high.    Ok . . at least that is better.   

Measurements:
                               Length      chambers
Beals cylinder        2.010           .449   -  .452   at the mouths - - smaller deeper and they vary some
Kirst  converter      2.020          .450
ASM                      2.010          .450
Pietta                    2.020          .455

Beals barrel bore     .450

My conical bullets   . .454   rebated at the base and hollow based.

Don't know why the accuracy is so bad.   Of course the "Beals Bore" is the measurement of a slug and that slug measures the tightest place in the bore.  But even though the bore is pitted there are clear lands and grooves all the way thru. 

I have loaded the ASM cylinders again with maximum charges of 2f.  ie.  leaving just enough room to seat the conical bullets and barely clear the front of the cylinder.   Not had a chance to shoot them yet as I'm busy working on my house that may need to be ready for a film company to use in May and on Ranch Projects for a Music Video production that is upcoming on the 24-25th.   Will try to get out on the range and shoot them tomorrow afternoon. 

Anyone have thoughts on why the accuracy has been so bad out of this barrel ?   

[Wolfgang]

Wolfgang,

What does the inscription on the BBL read?

That looks like a rarer Remington - Beals Elliot's Transition to NMA with ALL the refinements, last model issued before the release of the NMA, hence the Silver front sight, the high hammer, etc. These were issued with all or most all of the NMA refinements, just in the 6 months prior to the NMA being released. IT appears to have the smaller Remington - Beals Frame also, this is one of rarer Remington - Beals models found. This one has the scooped breech.
Nice snag!!

Barrel inscription reads . . . .

Patented ~~~~ 1861
Manufactured By R ~~~~ Lion ~~

( ~~~` indicates illegible due to pitting )