why I think Jeff Cooper was a negative influence in the shooting world

[petrinal]

well, first of all, I LOVE THE USA. As a matter of fact, it is probably the only foreign country I would fight for, in other words, I have your nation and her contribution to world freedom in high regard .  That doesnt mean I should adore everything that your nation does, and viceversa!. And Second, I am not  neither a liberal, nor a socialist: I voted for the conservative party here and my last vote went to a guy who was running a  regional very conservative party, who, by way, was pro gun.

the only difference here is mentality, as I live in other continent, where tactics and learning when it comes to Police and military training have diverted greatly from the some times very unrealistic Jeff Copper´s views. Much has been written about this in the last 20 years from european experts, who, embracing Jeff Cooper tactics initially, soon realized that reality, at least here, with shorter distances, and quick assaults,  proved different, as I have explained.

Nothing or very little of this got to the american press, who ignores all the time (but not viceversa) everything that does not come from the USA, mainly in part because of the legend about J. Cooper, who seems untouchable, despite reality proving  that he was just wrong in many of his tactics.

about  the authors who took a different approach to a problem that was not solved by Cooper, like a realistic training to an unpredictable attact,  I can mention several here:

Cecilio Andrade, Javier Pecci y Ernesto Pérez. This latter one suffered an assault, by armed robbers, suffering several personal injuries. All other experts are police trainers, with several gun fights in the street (sometimes againts the very dangerous far East maphia members, who are ex military in many cases and have no problems using automatic weapons). They all were trained in Jeff Cooper teachings, the predominant technics employed in the 80´s world wide, and they all soon realised that those technics didnt work. They also analized several gun fights, very carefully, from a very scientific point of view, coming to the same conclusions: the Cooper trainings were not saving lives here.

the example is the famous Weaver instance: it is uncomfortable and antinatural, and in most shootings confrontrations, most people reverted to ISOSCELES unconsciously......by the way.... where did Cooper took this instance from? from his nill combat experience in WW2 (he was stationed in a ship) or from his combat experience in Korea (very little is known about that and how much real use of a handgun he did).....well, he took it from a guy called Weaver..., a fellow shooter in his club...who used this uncomfortable and very rigid.. instance for shooting..unlike ISOSCELES, a lot more flexible (Jerry Miculek would agree with that).

what is my point here?

to show another reality to my fellow american shooters. Nothing more. I didnt really mean to insult of offend anyone. So far no one has done a good technical criticism to what is exposed in this excellent link:

http://tirodefensivocampodegibraltar.blogspot.com.es/2010/03/posicion-isosceles-moderna-dinamica-la.html


can please anyone debate, point by point, what the author, an experience policeman and trainer, is exposing in that link?

about the "tactical trend", that has "destroyed" the gun market mainly in the USA, with a legion of would be rambos, it was Jeff Cooper´s idea, a nefastous heritage. It created more antigunners than anything else.

there are many ways of serving one´s country. Going to a wrong war, might not mean "serving one´s country", but, on the opposite, doing more damage to one´s nation.

if my country wrongly decides to invade an arab nation tomorrow (one must be really inmature to have such idea), a wrong political decision...am I serving my country by going to that war or, on the opposite, I am just risking my life for a  polititian´s wrong ideas?

sorry, I learnt myself from  an early age to be independent in my way of thinking, and  to not be blinded by a political idea,  a flag or by ignorant polititians or used as a muppet by them, who would happily send your children to die in foreign wars far away, but  not theirs........polititians are human and make many mistakes, sometimes ruining people´s life and the country´s economy. It happened so many times here and it is happening again all the time. At least, they wont use me or  my children as carnage.....let them die in their own wars!

[Gen Lew Wallace]

Greetings,

I am going to reply one time to this.  All I see you doing is trying to prove some point that you won't easily convince Americans to change their way of thinking.  If you think we're wrong, so what?  We don't care much what you think.  We are born free and love our way of life and its heroes; and that includes Jeff Cooper.

As to your last few lines, you can go pound sand. 

I freely raised my right hand and served for twenty years.  I never went to a "wrong war" in my opinion.  Everywhere I went we were appreciated by those who were trying to build a free nation.  I taught common citizens how to build something and make a new life.  Only those who sought to oppress others hated us being there.... that and the pansy-ass hippy liberals; who if it weren't for people like me wouldn't be able to protest and enjoy the freedoms they have. 

I am proud of my service and anyone who wants to call me names can do so freely.  I gave them that freedom with my service.  Excuse me while I go out and run my flags up the pole and salute.

[ChuckBurrows]

the example is the famous Weaver instance: it is uncomfortable and antinatural, and in most shootings confrontrations, most people reverted to ISOSCELES unconsciously......by the way.... where did Cooper took this instance from? from his nill combat experience in WW2 (he was stationed in a ship) or from his combat experience in Korea (very little is known about that and how much real use of a handgun he did).....well, he took it from a guy called Weaver..., a fellow shooter in his club...who used this uncomfortable and very rigid.. instance for shooting..unlike ISOSCELES, a lot more flexible (Jerry Miculek would agree with that).

a guy called Weaver? - more than just some guy - check your facts on who he just happened to be -

Jack Weaver was a member of the L.A. County Sheriff's Pistol Team, along with Ray Chapman and several other world class shooters. In 1955, the team and individuals won the national championships at the Toledo, OH combat range using both one and two handed stances. The team defended the trophy for most of the following decade at practice matches in preparation for the National Pistol Matches, held shortly thereafter at Camp Perry, OH.
The Weaver stance was developed by Jack Weaver in 1959 to compete in Jeff Cooper's "Leatherslap" matches. The stance, which incorporates a two-handed grip, isometric tension to reduce muzzle flip, and aimed fire using the weapon's sights, was adopted in 1982 as the official shooting style of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

and I reckon that the FBI has a more than a bit of experience in CQB, along with the SEALS, Marine Recon, Special Forces, US Marshalls, US Secret Service, etc - all who have trained at Gunsite and all are trained in up close and personal fighting methods where ever needed in the world.......

[petrinal]

a guy called Weaver? - more than just some guy - check your facts on who he just happened to be -and I reckon that the FBI has a more than a bit of experience in CQB, along with the SEALS, Marine Recon, Special Forces, US Marshalls, US Secret Service, etc - all who have trained at Gunsite and all are trained in up close and personal fighting methods where ever needed in the world.......

well, great, but   FRENCH GENDARMERIE POLICE, GUARDIA CIVIL, GUARDIA DE FINANZA, Policia nacional,  CARABINIERI, Swiss  or belgian Police, SAS, GSG9, GEO,  German landers Police, Mossos d`Quadra, etc.... seem to have a different opinion and dont train at GUNSITE......they have their own training.

the USA is not the only nation in the world..the World is big.

[petrinal]

Greetings,

I am going to reply one time to this.  All I see you doing is trying to prove some point that you won't easily convince Americans to change their way of thinking.  If you think we're wrong, so what?  We don't care much what you think.  We are born free and love our way of life and its heroes; and that includes Jeff Cooper.

As to your last few lines, you can go pound sand.  

I freely raised my right hand and served for twenty years.  I never went to a "wrong war" in my opinion.  Everywhere I went we were appreciated by those who were trying to build a free nation.  I taught common citizens how to build something and make a new life.  Only those who sought to oppress others hated us being there.... that and the pansy-ass hippy liberals; who if it weren't for people like me wouldn't be able to protest and enjoy the freedoms they have.  

I am proud of my service and anyone who wants to call me names can do so freely.  I gave them that freedom with my service.  Excuse me while I go out and run my flags up the pole and salute.

the thing is that many americans didnt agree with JEFF COOPER neither, so not all americans are the same. Fortunately, and that is great, the USA is a nation where people are free to choose, and not all are alike.

above the rest, I could agree, maybe. I dont like hippies neither.

[ChuckBurrows]

it seems that his main merit was...to be with Jeff Cooper

You missed the point - Jack Weaver's main merit was that he - and along with Roy Chapman and others who also developed the  "modern school" were street cops. While Col Cooper helped spread the word, it was street cops who first developed the method based on their experiences there and not on the battlefield.

As to your list of Euro training (SAS, GSG) etc, yes they do have their own training facilities and methods, but like most of the better forces, military or police, they cross train with others and of those you mentioned I know that SAS and GSG9 at least did some training and teaching at Gunsite back when it was still under the Colonel's leadership.

and if you think the Weaver is unnatural you're doing it wrong....like any other skill it requires training, but is no more "antinatural and uncomfortable, and rigid specially under stress or long time harm" when you do it right and train with it consistently....but then again you've convinced yourself apparently via the words of others since you offer none of your history to back up your bragging rights about what an ass the good Colonel's advice was  - and without up close and personal experience that's all it is bragging rights while dragging an honorable and very capable man's name through the mud.. reading some one else's experience is only vicarious not the real McCoy.

And by the way many of us here have lived/traveled beyond the borders of the USA and have more than a fair inkling what life is in Europe, Mexico, or South America...bad crime ridden areas are all over the world not just the USA and street fighting is street fighting - it's down and dirty no matter what part of the world you live in....

[RickB]

Some people live in a total dream world where they are unable to see the crime and injustices in their own back yard while telling us that our country is the worst there is.

As you've been told, just stop it. You're doing nothing more than making enemies.

[wildman1]

I think what "they" are really tryin ta do is close this and many other websites one thread at a time. WM

[RickB]

I do believe you're right. And I ain't buying that they love America or guns.

[cavsgt]

  I must be old AND dumb, would someone please explain just what his rant has to do with anything.  Not to be a smarty but who cares what he thinks.

[High Sierra]

I think what "they" are really tryin ta do is close this and many other websites one thread at a time. WM

+1.You may have a point.Thats the reason I dont respond to alot of these kinds of threads.I will not walk into the bear trap that some thread authors create.I am happy that there are very few of them here.This website is one of the best to become informed on subjects that I care about. Some people just deserve to be ignored.

HS

[wildman1]

Thank you. WM

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

we have a legion of gunwriters, sport shooters, and experts..who can get 530 points out of 600 in the bulls eye at 25 meters, but who can shoot the o´ring at 10 yards.....when in fact, that distance is even short for airguns...and there is no merit at all in shooting at such distance.

so many people, just because of the ·"dynamic trend",  know very little about trigger control, sights, shooting  glasses, etc etc...25 meters just wont let you do the mistakes you can do at 10 yards, period.

real life  attacks happen at very short distances, and very very quickly, having the guy almost on you or just at  a distance of centimeters, in the european/argentinian/israeli case...as people walk more here and use the car less, so they are not allways  assaulting you in a road ,or the  city outskirts, but in the middle of a narrow street, and the attacker normally thinks that you are unarmed.

in general, cities, houses, streets, etc.... are a lot smaller here and attacks happen at very short distances.

I wonder if I am the only one confused by the reasoning.

Being extremely accurate at 10 yards has no merit, yet the attacks happen at very short distances!  Hitting a bulls eye target at 27 yards is a whole different ball game than hitting center of mass at 15 feet in my humble opinion.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE LET THIS CLOWN PUSH YOUR BUTTONS ?  YOU GIVE HIM ALL THE ATTENTION HE CRAVES. WHY DO YOU CONTINUALLY FEED THIS TROLL ? IT AMAZES ME TO SEE HOW HE USES YOU ALL FOR HIS ENJOYMENT. SHEEP, FOLLOWING THE WOLF.    DO NOT FEED THIS TROLL............

It is called Freedom of speech.  People have the right to respond to anyone they choose, the same as people have the right not too respond.

[Gen Lew Wallace]

well, please let´s remember that this is a US based site but open to peoples from different nations, not only the USA.

We dont believe in heroes, in this part of the world.

I must admit that your flag (state ?) is really beautiful.

Sure it's open to people all around the world.  However, when you post this kind of stuff you are provoking a response like you see here.  What did you expect?  We don't follow the same thinking that you do in other parts of the world.  So you will not convince us to change that.

It's the Grand Union Flag the first true American flag, the Gonzalez Flag from Texas is below it. (Think Alamo)

[Gen Lew Wallace]

isnt it preconstitutional?

what has your flag has to do with COOPER´s teachings? was he more american than Askins or Applegate, who didnt share his views? or Miculek, who uses Isosceles?

why do you show your flag here? what adds to the topic?

Because I love my country and its people that I hold in high regard.

when I talk about shooting with colleagues from Argentina, France, Uk, Holland, I dont show my flag, and they dont show me theirs, as that adds nothing to what is being discussed....

Then that is your loss if you aren't proud to show your national pride and the colors.

it is strange how much obsession with the flag some peoples in the USA have....europeans are totally different in that aspect..their attittude toward national flag is of respect, proud, but not obssesion.

It's not strange at all; it's pure pride and patriotism.  Europeans are indeed different.  If you want to call it obsession I take that as a compliment.  Yes, I served under that flag for twenty years and I fly it in my yard daily and my casket will be draped in that flag when I die.  You could call it obsession, but I call it pure love of country and a beautiful emblem.  You can insult me, call me names, and whatever else you want, but don't you dare insult the flag or we will have a problem.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

You can insult me, call me names, and whatever else you want, but don't you dare insult the flag or we will have a problem.

This brings to mind my cousin.  The day he arrived home from Viet Nam, he got arrested.  My Uncle picked him up at the airport and was driving him home.  All of a sudden my Cousin screams, STOP the truck.  My Uncle slammed on the brakes and before he could say anything, my cousin was out of the truck.

My cousin walked across the street and up to the front door.  He proceeded to knock on the door and a man opened it.  At that point, my cousin grabbed him, threw him into the front yard and beat the holy bejesus out of him.  The cops came and my cousin was arrested.  Reason, the man had a flag in his yard.  The United States Flag.  It was upside down.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

is that what he learnt in VIETNAM? ohh..that´s terrible!

No what he learned was, sacrifice, honor and duty.  He also learned how much he loved our freedom and respect for a nation and the flag.  He also learned not to back down from his beliefs and not to take disrespect of self, flag or country.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

what if the polititian sending to die there in a foreign war....is just wrong?

What if they are right?

Looking back through our history, there have been times war might have been wrong.  

Looking at Europe today I might feel, my Grandfather was wrong supporting the first world war.  My father and Uncles were wrong supporting the second world war in Europe.

What would Europe look like today if we had done nothing as a people, because politicians could have been wrong?

The conflicts since were wrong in how they were fought.  

I support Country and Flag first and judge politicians second. I would also be the last person the world would want to see be President and worse yet, Ruler of a powerful nation.

[petrinal]

What if they are right?

Looking back through our history, there have been times war might have been wrong.  

Looking at Europe today I might feel, my Grandfather was wrong supporting the first world war.  My father and Uncles were wrong supporting the second world war in Europe.

What would Europe look like today if we had done nothing as a people, because politicians could have been wrong?

The conflicts since were wrong in how they were fought.  

I support Country and Flag first and judge politicians second. I would also be the last person the world would want to see be President and worse yet, Ruler of a powerful nation.

in general I agree with you. Europe would not be free now. And I thank those american veterans who gave their life for freedom here. I cant say thanks enought times!

let me add something:

in WW2 it was a  mistake to fight for China´s freedom. The japanese were ...maybe ...not so wrong about China....now they are destroying the World economy and the planet.....