Cylinder Gap

[carbineone]

What would be a ideal Barrel to Cylinder gap on a remington 1858 44 army Revolver? What would be a max gap? Is there any issues if you have a gap that is excessive as far as safety is concerned? I know too large a gap and you are going to lose some FPS, but is it unsafe with too large of a Flash Gap? I am not talking a gap in the 1/4 inch range but maybe .024..

I have seen some say they have routinley shot Cap and Ball Revolvers with as much as .070  gap..

Any insight would be great.

I searched the internet for two Hours
and never really found a good answer. Maybe I am typing in the wrong words to search the internet..Thanks

[Dick Dastardly]

From experience the gap should be between 5 and 8 thousandths.  Narrower than 5 and it soots up and drags.  More than 8 and it seems to allow too much flash.

I have several braces of Ruger RVs and they all seem to thrive on the above limits.  Same goes for my 1860 open tops.  Your milage may vary, but that's what works best for me.

DD-MDA

[hellgate]

I'm with DD on this one. My favorite Colt style gap is .007". The Remingtons I have had varied from about .004 to .009.

[carbineone]

Well I think the problem I am having is powder residue gets in the cylinder pin and locks up the cylinder in a few rounds. I assume I have too much gap and am getting way too much powder flash at the junction of the cylinder and barrel...Will keep messing wih it and see what I can do..I know Remingtons are prone to this, but you should be able to atleast get through one dang cylinder before it locks up....

If I hold the cylinder tight to rear and meausure with feeler gauges, I can about a .023 feeler in there. It shoots just fine but the cylinder locks up...
Thanks

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The proper way to measure cylinder gap is with the cylinder pushed as far forward as it will go, not backwards. I agree, between .005 - .008 is all the gap that is needed to keep a well set up revolver running all day with the proper bullet lube when shooting Black Powder. The problem with the 1858 Remington is its lack of a bushing on the front of the cylinder, not the width of the barrel/cylinder gap. There are numerous posts on this board that discuss this in detail.

Here is one:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,43050.0.html

[pony express]

What are you using for lube? Try using some crisco or other lube over the ball, in sufficient ammounts, so that every shot not only soots the base pin, but lubes it too.

[harleydavis]

I have found that using Lubriplate on the cylinder pin will help keep you shooting a bit longer. It is a high temp lube and not so prone to running out of the pinhole just from heat.

[Dick Dastardly]

Silas McFee and I ran an exhaustive test with his Pietta Remington 58 replica.  We shot Big Lube®LLC bullets pushed by a full charge of black powder.  It was published in the SASS Cowboy Chronicle.  Our results showed no loss of accuracy of function after the equivalent of shooting a full match without cleaning.

The thing that made this experiment work was all the lube hauled by the Big Lube bullets.

DD-MDA

[Billy Bristol]

Driftwood,

My cylinder has no gap when pushed forward. It contacts the barrel. The gap is when the cylinder is pushed back toward the hammer.

[August]

I run Mobil 1 Wheel Bearing Grease on the base pin and front of the cylinder.  This forms a pretty good seal that usually lasts an entire, six stage, match.  This particular grease has the properties of being fully synthetic (i.e. black powder compatible) and being viscous, which allows it to stay in place better than some other choices.

Your intuition is consistent with my experience.  Too much cylinder gap will increase the amount of blow-by attacking the base-pin/frame juncture.  Guns with larger gaps will foul the base-pin more quickly than guns with less gap.

My experience has been that, when a cylinder starts to get sluggish, it is always due to a little bit of fouling, or a tiny piece of soot finding its way down, into the base-pin/frame junction.  A quick disassembly, wipe, and squirt of Ballistol restores things to normal.  Of course, Ballistol doesn't seal the junction as well as Mobil 1 grease.  But, such a cleaning during a match will usually get me through two stages without problem.

[pistol1911]

Driftwood that is a good looking Bisley. I like those grips.

[carbineone]

Thanks to all. I have tried white lithium type grease and that was terrible. I then just sprayed the front of the cylinder,pin and down in the pin hole with some of the wifes non stick crisco cooking spray that had canola oil in it. That got me the best results so far.

Dang near made it through the whole cylinder with that. I will try some of the Mobil grease. Maybe today and let you know.  Do you also put the Mobil on top of the balls. I do not worry about chain fires at the front as I use about 15 grains of cream of wheat filler on top the powder. Maybe that in itself is causing me problems. Since the cream of wheat does not burn maybe it is just getting thrown into the pin area and plugging it up.

Just so you know this is a original Civil War era Remington. Hence the reason for the filler. Yes I do shoot it. I only shoot 20 grains with the filler on top. I will only shoot it a couple times a year but like to do it occasionally. It is a sickness and I cannot help it,LOL. No way I can ever resist to shoot my antiques. I do not know how some can hold back from doing so.

I know some will cringe, but it is not a collector speciman so much. Not the best shape cosmetically and has some replacement parts, but cylinder is fair, as is the bore..

[August]

Mobil 1 probably too expensive to use atop balls.

[carbineone]

Well I went and bought a tube of the Synthetic Mobil one Wheel Bearing grease. It got me throught the whole cylinder. I however do not think it would get through two without cleaning in between. Which is fine, as long it gets me through one, that is all that matters to me. On the rare occasions I do fire it, one cylinder will be all I will shoot anyway..

You are right it is expensive at 8.00 a tube, but will last me a lifetime for sure..And I can use it for other stuff also..

Thanks

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood,

My cylinder has no gap when pushed forward. It contacts the barrel. The gap is when the cylinder is pushed back toward the hammer.

According to what you have described, you have zero cylinder gap. What you have is endshake. The amount the cylinder can move longitudinally on the cylinder pin is endshake. Ideally, it should be zero. A few thousandths is normal. More than that is excessive.

If I hold the cylinder tight to rear and meausure with feeler gauges, I can about a .023 feeler in there. It shoots just fine but the cylinder locks up...

What you have is about .023 of endshake, which is not surprising considering the age of the gun. This may be allowing the cylinder to jump back during recoil, opening the barrel/cylinder gap way up. This may in turn be allowing excess fouling to be blasted out of the b/c gap, which is deposited on the cylinder pin, causing your binding problem. The lack of a cylinder bushing just makes this worse.

You might consider bringing the gun to a good gunsmith, and seeing if he can tighten up the endshake. If the cylinder stops moving backwards when the gun is fired, you may find you have a more acceptable amount of fouling being deposited on the cylinder pin, and you may be able to fire the gun longer without getting binding.

The filler is probably not helping either, it is probably making the fouling more abrasive. If you want to shoot light loads in the gun, you might consider placing a lubed fiber wad, such as a Wonder Wad between the powder and the ball to take up the extra space, instead of filler.

[carbineone]

Driftwood. So I understand
correctly. You are saying the rear of the cylinder needs shimmed to put the cylinder in a more forward position? I did make a little shim I was going to try at the rear of the cylinder and see if it would improve but have not tried it with it in there yet.

I made it with a thickness of .017..I made it out of stainless steel.

That would definitley tighten the gap at the barrel and cylinder junction..Thanks

[Billy Bristol]

Driftwood,

Cylinder gap on a percussion revolver is measured by holding cylinder back toward hammer not forward.
Cylinder gap on newer Cartridge revolvers is measured by holding cylinder forward.

On Cartridge revolvers the cylinder usually has a bushing protruding out the front of the cylinder which creates the gap.

[harleydavis]

I do not worry about chain fires at the front as I use about 15 grains of cream of wheat filler on top the powder. Maybe that in itself is causing me problems. Since the cream of wheat does not burn maybe it is just getting thrown into the pin area and plugging it up.

Have you tried using Wonder Wads instead of the cream of wheat? IMHO, cream of wheat is good for blanks but gotta wonder about using in live firing.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood. So I understand
correctly. You are saying the rear of the cylinder needs shimmed to put the cylinder in a more forward position? I did make a little shim I was going to try at the rear of the cylinder and see if it would improve but have not tried it with it in there yet.

I made it with a thickness of .017..I made it out of stainless steel.

That would definitley tighten the gap at the barrel and cylinder junction..Thanks

No, what I am saying is you should bring the gun to a smith who is familiar with single action revolvers. There may be another reason that you have so much endshake. Shimming it forward may reveal other problems, difficult to diagnose on the Net. Shimming may be the answer, then again it may not.

Driftwood,

Cylinder gap on a percussion revolver is measured by holding cylinder back toward hammer not forward.
Cylinder gap on newer Cartridge revolvers is measured by holding cylinder forward.

On Cartridge revolvers the cylinder usually has a bushing protruding out the front of the cylinder which creates the gap.

Let's try this again. Barrel/cylinder gap is created by the combination of how far the barrel protrudes (or does not protrude)
into the frame window and what prevents the cylinder from riding any farther forward. On a revolver that has a cylinder bushing, the barrel will always protrude into the frame window. The height of the bushing, minus the amount of protrusion into the frame window, defines the Barrel/Cylinder Gap.

In this instance, the height of the bushing is about .005 more than the barrel protrudes into the frame window, so the revolver has a gap of about .005.





This Remmie is very tight. The Barrel/Cylinder gap is about .004. That means the rear of the barrel is actually about .004 subflush of the portion of the frame the cylinder rubs against. With the cylinder all the way back, the gap increases to about .006. That means the revolver has a Barrel/Cylinder gap of .004 and the cylinder has .002 of Endshake. The gap is measured with the cylinder pushed all the way forward, no different than any other revolver.



My other Remmie has a gap of .008, and .004 endshake, so with the cylinder all the way back, the gap increases to .012. Again, the Barrel/Cylinder gap is measured with the cylinder pressed all the way forward, no different than any other revolver.

[hellgate]

Geese,
Now I'm getting more confused. I always thought cylinder gap was the distance or space between the cylinder face and the back of the barrel that occurs when the gun is fired. Even if the cylinder face is flush up against the back of the barrel (cocked or not) when the gun is fired and the cylinder is forced back .01" then the gap is .01", right? For sure that's the case on a C&B. So in a cartridge gun, does the cylinder not always get forced rearward when fired (like a C&B)? In other words, can just the cartridge case get forced back when fired and not the cylinder?